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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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| Daddylolo wrote: |
| .......expensive and time consuming........ |
Welcome to vintage vehicle ownership.
Shimming would be an option to drive it to civilization for a better fix if you were in the middle of nowhere, but the need for them indicates bad things are happening in there and if you leave it as is it will end badly.
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42625
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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I wouldn't run those heads or trust them. They are well past the stage they can even be rebuilt with confidence. They are aluminum heads, on a car that can raise their temps to 500F if the bus is not de-tuned properly. Your valves are stretching, the seats going in deeper, there are probably many cracks in the heads, and one day very soon a seat will fall out. What happens next depends on your luck.
Figuratively, this isn't an earthquake will happen someday warning. The earthquake has happened. Now you need to get to high ground, out to sea, or be swallowed by the tsunami.
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Daddylolo
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Joined: June 05, 2007
Posts: 253
Location: Sintra, Portugal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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Thanx, I will have a better look on the head issue.
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Daddylolo
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Joined: June 05, 2007
Posts: 253
Location: Sintra, Portugal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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Well guys, when it was told in this post that refitting both heads was time consuming and money spending I never ment money was a problem but time is as I really need this van back on the road soon. So today a pair of new heads just arrived from VW Heritage and I will be busy this next days...
This heads have improved sealing against the barrels so no longer need the shims, like type 1 heads.
And by the way, air-cooled VW's are my passion and daily drive since 1990, will bet 'till I die...
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Daddylolo
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Joined: June 05, 2007
Posts: 253
Location: Sintra, Portugal
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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Well, money was never a issue as I want to build a reliable engine to do what VW buses do: eat the tarmac, so I got a new pair of heads from VW Heritage in the UK.
Took the last days to put everything together but when setting valves I found that TDC is not correct with timing on pulley because exhaust valve does not open after it.
I believe there might be a error in the positioning of camshaft gear. This engine was fit with a new camshaft but not by me so I'm not really sure about this, there might be a error on the gear position. The strange thing is that the engine was running before disassembling, even if not well...now I'm in the edge of having to disassemble the all lot...this all thing is driving me nuts...Am I missing something? And on disassembling, How can I be sure about the right cam to gear setting?
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 52834
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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How are you determining TDC?
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Daddylolo
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Joined: June 05, 2007
Posts: 253
Location: Sintra, Portugal
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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moving the pulley to 0 degrees, the distributor gear shaft is on 12 degrees from horizontal, just like the book, then I rotate the engine, exhaust starts to open on 1st cylinder but the piston is not on TDC, it is way back
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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There's an excellent chance the distributor drive was installed wrong, before you go tearing it apart to check the cam there's other ways to find TDC without looking at the distributor.
If it was running and you know which wire went to #1 cylinder stop at TDC on the pulley when the rotor is pointing at that electrode in the cap (the hole the wire was plugged into). Or have a helper watch #3's valves while you turn the engine, when one rocker closes as the other one just starts moving #1 cylinder is on the correct cycle for TDC. Or put your finger in #1's sparkplug hole and turn until you feel compression, stop turning when the pulley reaches TDC.
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12846
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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Are you turning the crank pulley clock wise?
Link
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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The exhaust valve is not going to start to open close to TDC, but will begin to open somewhere around 150° after top dead center.
If you watch the valves on the #3 cylinder while someone rocks the engine back and forth passed TDC for #1 you should see both rockers on #3 moving right at TDC #1. |
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Daddylolo
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Location: Sintra, Portugal
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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Ok, so I did it this way: turning the engine clockwise found #1 cylinder TDC and valves on #3 move, first exhaust second inlet, pulley mark on 0 degrees.Turned 180 degrees and found #4 cylinder TDC, valves on #2 move, first exhaust, second inlet, pulley mark on 180 degrees. Turned another 180 degrees and found #3 cylinder TDC, valves on #1 move, first exhaust, second inlet, pulley mark on 0 degrees. Finally turned another 180 degrees and found #2 cylinder TDC, valves on #4 move, first exhaust, second inlet and pulley mark on 180 degrees. Do that seems right?
It is hard to learn alone by yourself...
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Tcash
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Tcash
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Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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| Daddylolo wrote: |
| turning the engine clockwise found #1 cylinder TDC and valves on #3 move, first exhaust second inlet |
Concentrate on #1 TDC
Easiest way is to put your finger over #1 spark plug hole.
Turn engine Clockwise just until you feel pressure on your finger.
Keep turning clockwise until TDC mark lines up with (0) on the timing scale.
That is TDC #1 Compression stroke.
Watch #4 intake valve [second one from the right] in the video.
Note that it is opening when #1 is on TDC Compression Stroke.
Link
Good luck
Tcash
Last edited by Tcash on Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Daddylolo
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Location: Sintra, Portugal
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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Well, the pulley was 180 degrees wrong ( you can put it apart from the fan on type 4 engine) so maybe there was a miss position on the distributor shaft originally. Now I think I got it right, couldn't be other way with your help, thank to all!
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busdaddy
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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| Daddylolo wrote: |
| Ok, so I did it this way: turning the engine clockwise found #1 cylinder TDC and valves on #3 move, first exhaust second inlet, pulley mark on 0 degrees. |
If both valves on #3 are moving at TDC for #1 then the cam timing pretty much has to be correct so you can move on from there.
If your engine will not start at all then I would try moving the wires 180° around the cap and see what happens. There are many reasons that your wires may not line up as per factory, so it is common to have to move the wires around to get an engine to run. |
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Daddylolo
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Joined: June 05, 2007
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Location: Sintra, Portugal
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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Well, the engine is all assembled now and I tried to start it on the bench like I did on my type 1, got a ignition switch, one wire goes to the battery (+), another to the coil and another to the starter solenoid, then got it grounded on the starter screw to gearbox (-) and the battery positive on the starter solenoid. Could´t get any spark on the plugs.
Checked the points, whites, all normal troubleshooting you do but with no results. Now I wonder if there is any connection that I missed, like this box on the engine bay, I'm not using it but it seems that it is related with charging...
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nathansnathan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:13 am Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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| The box is the voltage regulator for charging the battery. You should be able to run the engine with just the 12v from the battery without worrying about it charging for the test. Make sure that you distributor is getting a signal by timing it staticly - a test light from ground to the negative side of the coil should light up and turn off as you turn the motor. I think if you set it to go on at about 7-8 degrees btdc. |
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Daddylolo
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Joined: June 05, 2007
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Location: Sintra, Portugal
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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That's what I did but it didn't work time enough to test it. In the beginning I had spark on the coil cable so I thought it would be a distributor issue. I had no new one so I switched for the one in my bug, it did spur for a while but dropped dead and never fired again. When I put it back in my car the bug engine was not the same, really running rough.
After that, the bay motor had no spark on the coil anymore... I changed the coil for a another but all remained the same.
I'm starting to think that the bench installation might be defective but, anytime I switch it I can hear the cutoff valves opening, all looks just as it must be...
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Daddylolo
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Joined: June 05, 2007
Posts: 253
Location: Sintra, Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor shaft and timing |
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Well, so people got to know, I've found the problem: the spring between the distributor gear shaft and the distributor itself was too strong, not letting the distributor to fully engage the shaft so, when I was first starting the engine with the distributor not clamped, it tended to get off with the rotation.
Another issue was that it only worked when I changed all the distributor cables 180 degrees, some how cylinder 1 is in position of cylinder 3 on the distributor.
It has been running for about one hour now so next will be fitting it to the van.
Thanx to everybody who helped my brains get that far!
[IMG]http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/daddylolo1963/th_IMG_4121_zpszrjpkrq0.mp4[/IMG]
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