Hightop Stability Bang for the Buck?

[brokengun]

I've done lots of reading about tires, front end bushings and front anti-roll bars but I'm still a little confused on where to put my dollars. Hoping some of you could shed some light on what to improve on my '84 vanagon adventurewagen with 15" wheels.

The previous owner installed a set of brand new Hercules 215/65R15 tires. They have a 96 load rating (should be at least 100 right?), claim to be "standard load" with a maximum of 44psi inflation. From what I can tell these tires are pretty close to the right thing but not 100% as far as sidewall strength. http://imgur.com/a/JvGOA

At low speed in town driving the van tracks fine. I would like to improve high way speed stability and low speed cornering if possible. There is quite the broad side on this adventurewagen! Highway driving is OK but would be nice if the van wouldn't wonder occasionally at speed and delt with crosswinds better. Seems like my steering control arms, etc aren't loose either.

So my question to you fine folks is where do I start:

1. Buy a set of Nokian 205/70R15's and sell the new Hercules tires https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0100O8YIA/ref=o...HPQQSFZ1H6

2. Install an anti-roll bar and/or steering rack bushings.

3. All of the above because I won't get what I want until I do.
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1984 Vanagon Adventurewagen with EJ22 conversion
1975 Beetle - Big whole in the floorboards
1974 Westy - Will be on the road one day!
1973 Bus - sold

[clift_d]

Tyres should be at least 97 and at proper pressures, then I would start with poly bushes to the front steering rack, and then the next thing would probably be a front lower spoiler.
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1988 LHD T25 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro

[jimf909]

The 96 rated tires must go. Replace them and go from there. Shocks, T-3 anti-sway bar and bushings would be next on my list depending on their current state.

A complete inspection of the suspension and prioritized checklist will give you something to work with.
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- Jim

[Steve M.]

Depending on the shape of the high top a spoiler at the rear of the high top to stop the lift it can generate at the insanely high speeds you can drive the Vanagon.
However, the lift may increase gas mileage as the Vanagon would weigh less. (a 747 doesn't weigh anything when it takes off.)

See the recent thread posting where the beautiful Reimo top separated from the Vanagon, that was cause by the lift and the Vanagon's natural inability to fly!

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=607794&start=220
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This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.

[tates1882]

Tires first. I took cooper emerald load rating 96 off my naht and added Nokian 225/55 r 17 load rating 102xl. It made a HUGE HUGE difference.
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88 Vanaru, ej22, naht

[yiucycle]

I know it help for me with high load rating tires but also check your alignment too and all the steering components(tie rod ends, UBJ, LBJ, and steering donuts, etc). I said do all of it if you have the money and most can be done yourself with basic tools. The steering rack bushing didn't dramatically improve my steering but all my 37+ yr bushings are still in great shape.
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1980 2.8LV6 Fiero ASI/Riviera Vanagon
"there is no point in being embarrassed of all the stupid shit i done and will continue to do"

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[syncrodoka]

You want light truck tires not standard load, you get stronger sidewalls.
The poly steering rack bushings are a cheap upgrade and they improve your van tracking noticeably in cross winds. I consider it a must do upgrade.

[Terry Kay]

Tires and steering rack bushings?

You sure short sided this job.

Add 4 springs, 4 HD shocks, upper control arm bushings. tie rod ends, an alignment--then watch it go in a straight line with minimum blowing around.
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T.K.

[syncrodoka]

Sure, if you want to get the factory ride you need to rebuild the entire suspension. The OP was just asking for a starting point so I tried to answer the actual question asked.

[brokengun]

Thanks for the helpful replies!

Yikes about the high top flying off.... Maybe I should throw a safety cable on there somewhere...

I think I'm onto tires first and then moving on from there. The van has a fairly new (less than 1 yr) ball joint and the steering linkages do not seem to have play in them. The bushing look surprisingly in good shape (from what I can see obviously) but hard telling without removing them. They aren't cracked or bulged out, etc. Maybe I can snap some pictures and we can all bet on it?

I've also been jonesing to buy that anti-roll bar from T3 but it really only makes sense once the tires are right.
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1984 Vanagon Adventurewagen with EJ22 conversion
1975 Beetle - Big whole in the floorboards
1974 Westy - Will be on the road one day!
1973 Bus - sold

[brokengun]

I'm between these firestone transforce 205/65R15: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=...mpare1=yes

And the slightly cheaper Nokian eNTYRE All-Season Radial Tire - 205/70R15 100T Here:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0100O8YIA/ref=o...HPQQSFZ1H6

Cast your votes now!
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1984 Vanagon Adventurewagen with EJ22 conversion
1975 Beetle - Big whole in the floorboards
1974 Westy - Will be on the road one day!
1973 Bus - sold

[jimf909]

I run Nokian WG3s in 215/60 R16 and like them a lot. Highly recommended especially if the van will be driven in snow, which I'm guessing it will be in Maine.
https://www.nokiantires.com/winter-tires/nokian-wrg3/

The WRC3 would also be a possibility
https://www.nokiantires.com/tires/van-tires/all-weather-tires/

As TK says, shocks and springs, but especially shocks may be needed. I recently replaced Bilsteins (not the GW XLs) with Rancho shocks set at 9 on all four corners and the van with the high-top is the best handling Vanagon I've had in 20 years.

But start with tires, ensure the bushings are in great shape (ideally less than 5 years old) and go from there.
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- Jim

[ThankYouJerry]

Tires are #1 for obvious safety reasons. However, as far as stability/handling goes I feel I received as good if not greater benefits from the T3 poly steering bushing than I did from "upgrading" from stock tires to 215/65/15s (Nokian WRG2s that were "C" rated). Tomorrow I'm mounting a set of new Nokian WRC3 in 205/70/15 that are "D" rated. Hoping the stiffer sidewalls result in even more crosswind stability without sacrificing too much comfort. I also have T3's anti-swaybar. Highly recommended.

But, of course, TK has a point that for optimal performance it's honestly all or nothing. If finances don't allow for that, tires are a great place to start.

BTW... if you choose Nokian tires (highly recommended!) please support Van Cafe (a dedicated Vanagon vendor) instead of purchasing them on Amazon. Van Cafe works hard to keep our beloved Westys on the road! My $.02
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1990 Multivan - "Ohana"
1.8T, Auto w/3.27 R&P + Peloquin TBD

[J Charlton]

Thought I'd weigh in here with a few thoughts re stability in side winds
1 Shape of the top - (we make both AW and NAHT tops - so my opinions on the relative merits of either are as objective as I can make them) . The NAHT top is superior to the AW top in sidewinds. The AW top is essentially a single plane extension of the van, the NAHT top has multiple planes (ie side planes both) - therefore the NAHT tends to shed winds up and over the top without them "catching" as they do on the monoplaned AW top.
2. Tires and wheel size - reducing the height of the side wall on tires, irrespective of the rating, by increasing wheel size has the most dramatic effect. I.E. properly rated 14" tires with the same overall diameter as 15 or 16" tires (the 15's and 16's would therefore have a shorter sidewall) will not perform as well as the shorter sidewalled 15 or 16's in sidewinds. Pure physics - all of the leverage and side forces of sidewinds come down to attempting to push the wheels of the van sideways while the tire tread tries to keep it going straight - the lower the sidewalls, the less sway there will be.
3. All of the other suspension components mentioned in the other posts above, with the understanding that any of them will have a positive effect if done in conjuction with or subsequent to #2 above.
JC
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NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024

[macjack]

I will add to the list: new springs. I found that even with OME shocks, the springs were the thing that really mattered for tilting in winds and cornering ( don't have a hightop, but sometimes run a big roofbox and canoe on my westy, so have some ~similar dynamics). I recently replaced the stock springs with Syncro.org springs and it is night and day as far as tilting. The shocks and struts dampen but the springs are the basic stiffness.

And T3 bushings really improve things.

Of course, starting with tires that are load rated for the vanagon is a perfect starting point, as far as "bang for the buck" and peace of mind.

I do have a lot of rubber in my sidewall, with 29 inch diameter tires and 15 inch wheels. Yes, that gives more squish than a low profile sidewall will, but with BFG ATKO rated D, they are not that squishy, and whatever squish they have is nice to have when you hit potholes, washboards, etc.
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87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[Terry Kay]

The van is an 84.

You have all of the vehicles repair records from the last 11 owners that maintained it ?

If not, start with the suspension components first.
Last in line should be the hoops.

You notated you are looking for high speed cornering stability, along with straight line road holding capacities in a gale.

Everything is the suspension should be done first.

You are putting the cart in front of the horse here with just the new tires.

You will absolutely NOT Get Lamborghini, Ferrari, handling traits out of that rolling freight box with just a new set of tires.

Never Happen.
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T.K.

[brokengun]

Macjack: Thanks for that insight. I can see more stiffness helping a lot which is why I think with thicker sidewalls I might be able to notice some improvement. Of course if I've got squishy sidewalls (they do bulge more than I expect when properly inflated) suspension can only go so far too. I'll checkout synchro.org and see how that fits the future budget.

Terry: I'm glad you read my post so thoroughly, my dream of turning this van into a finely tuned F1 ready machine will soon be realized! With positive folks like you around, it's a wonder you don't see them on the track more often. Seriously though, let's chill.

[ThankYouJerry]

[macjack]

[jimf909]