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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13701
Location: Arizona
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 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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| aeromech wrote: |
6mm screws don't fit through the holes,
Yep, same here. Now guys, how freaking hard is it to make the holes fit a 6M bolt? |
Or VW parts vendors/sellers to actually CARE about the crap parts they are peddling...
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Busstom
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014
Posts: 4590
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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| aeromech wrote: |
6mm screws don't fit through the holes,
Yep, same here. Now guys, how freaking hard is it to make the holes fit a 6M bolt? |
About as easy as removing the paint from a starter pad 
Gosh Gary, nobody wants to argue here, I sure don't like to, it's not nice, and it's not fun. And I would never argue with you, especially, as you are one of the most respected and knowledgeable contributors here on The Samba. But really...are you really missing the point of my post? Come on now. It's not that drilling or enlarging a couple of holes is a big deal (nor is removing some paint). It's the fact that, as I pointed out, undersized holes on this part are on a long list of shit wrong with a single part that I'm POSITIVE that the guy pushing them is well aware of...yet he does nothing about it. It's a repeating pattern of lousy quality control and manufacturing drift that...oh well, never mind. I guess I have no business pointing out issues in the Bay forum. Later. |
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CarlosZ
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2016
Posts: 319
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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| aeromech wrote: |
The time I'm thinking of the fan housing had the 12 o'clock timing hole with the plastic plug. So I could set up TDC using the case split line. Then when I installed the aluminum scale I could see it was off by 3-4 degrees. As I recall there was no possible way to bend it to make it work. I guess I could have welded up the mounting holes and redrilled them but I didn't do that.
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I have a ‘72 shroud with a “0” and an “l” on the fan. Both marks look original. Is tdc #1 on the fan the little “l” or the “0”? The pics above show the “l” as tdc. My scale is a metal one that has some PO bends. My scale points to 0° as the fan is lined up with the “0”. Does this sound right? |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52739
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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| "0" is TDC and "I" is the timing mark (27° BTDC?) when viewed through the hole in the top of the shroud. |
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:07 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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| Busstom wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
6mm screws don't fit through the holes,
Yep, same here. Now guys, how freaking hard is it to make the holes fit a 6M bolt? |
About as easy as removing the paint from a starter pad
Gosh Gary, nobody wants to argue here, I sure don't like to, it's not nice, and it's not fun. And I would never argue with you, especially, as you are one of the most respected and knowledgeable contributors here on The Samba. But really...are you really missing the point of my post? Come on now. It's not that drilling or enlarging a couple of holes is a big deal (nor is removing some paint). It's the fact that, as I pointed out, undersized holes on this part are on a long list of shit wrong with a single part that I'm POSITIVE that the guy pushing them is well aware of...yet he does nothing about it. It's a repeating pattern of lousy quality control and manufacturing drift that...oh well, never mind. I guess I have no business pointing out issues in the Bay forum. Later. |
I didn't read that comment as an argument myself. I thought the complaint was on the part and we're all talking about the same thing.
Your post might not change the policy of the seller towards lousy parts, but I find it an important service to the Bay community to point and warn about these issues.
At this point, I think all of us know that there is hardly a plug and play repro part. I've personally gotten used to double-check each part for integrity regardless of the seller (I was once sold a fuel filter with a punched hole from VW Classic Parts!), and to rework them to fit. Not optimal, but that's what we've got. For some, this rework and making the perfect fit is annoying, others might enjoy it as part of the hobby. Myself, I don't mind it unless it's a real pain (e.g. aftermarket heater exchangers).
In this particular case, though, I would not buy this scale a second time, and unless I can avoid it, I will not rework it. I'll first try my luck and see if I can get away with it with the plastic scale.
The fact that the radius is different to the original scale, the holes need to be enlarged/redrilled to fit, the 24-26 marking is off by 1° and the mount needs to be bent introduces just way too much error to one part that is vital for not killing your engine. On the other hand, I have to give credit to whoever made the scale and managed to pack so many flaws in such a simple part. It must have taken some effort to reach this level of underachievement.
I remember the first time I was painstakingly timing the engine to the last degree. It's now a bit disappointing (and scary) to learn I was probably unknowingly off by 3-4 advance degrees due to a crappy scale.
Most importantly, I'm very thankful to those who pointed it out.
This thread from 2006 seems to indicate that the discrepancy between the two (aftermarket?) scale types had already been noticed:
| FLT4 wrote: |
I have two timing scales for my 2.0L cj engine one plastic and one metal, when you line them up together there is about 3.5 degrees difference !! Is one type more accurate than the other ? As timing is supposed to be crucial isnt it ?? whatdya reckon t that then !  |
It might be possible that the plastic one was created from a mold out of the original, whereas the metal one was pulled out of... well, use your imagination.
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Last edited by furgo on Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tbob
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 451
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:08 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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Ok,so I am getting old and my memory is bad, but isn't there a guy in Florida reproducing these scales, also? I remember his being advertised before all the big suppliers started carrying them. Anybody have one of his?
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23533
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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I don't think you are being too anal at all. Its amazing how much difceren e there js in between the scales....and as you mention....even the shroud itself has some location issues (not always all just the timing scale).
Even using the V notch on 411/914 or bus style...there can still sometimes be a combined +/-3° range of variation between slack in the shroud studs, the fan hub location pin and the fan itself.
As noted ....how far the scale is off.... probabaly does not make much difference in a valve adjustment.....on a bus with hydros.....but with solids and on the other type 4 injection systems it does make a difference. It can make even more so on an aftermarket cam depending on quickly the profile transitions from base circle to flank.
Also being too far off on the scale definitely can affect the idle timing enough to cause mechanical to kick in early giving an unsteady idle. Ray |
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KentABQ
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016
Posts: 2497
Location: Albuquerque NM
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
It's hard for me to post and not start an "aftermarket parts bitch-fest" but I think ignition timing is important enough to bitch about. 
Here is Andrewtf's engine with three timing scales; the engine was not turned at all when switching scales. See any issues here?
Early dual carb bus scale:
Fuel injection scale from a later bus:
Piece of shit from a shiny catalog somewhere.
3-4 degrees off isn't a big deal for valve adjustments, but it can be the difference between a long-lasting engine and an engine that can't get out of it's own way…
Robbie |
Yikes. I have the shiny POS one on mine. 
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-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
        ---williamM |
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13701
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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| KentPS wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
It's hard for me to post and not start an "aftermarket parts bitch-fest" but I think ignition timing is important enough to bitch about.
Here is Andrewtf's engine with three timing scales; the engine was not turned at all when switching scales. See any issues here?
Early dual carb bus scale:
Fuel injection scale from a later bus:
Piece of shit from a shiny catalog somewhere.
3-4 degrees off isn't a big deal for valve adjustments, but it can be the difference between a long-lasting engine and an engine that can't get out of it's own way…
Robbie |
Yikes. I have the shiny POS one on mine. |
You'll be fine.. 
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
40+ years of VW repair, and VW parts and vehicle restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 24472
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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Ouch, Bill
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KentABQ
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016
Posts: 2497
Location: Albuquerque NM
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
You'll be fine.. |
"Ouch" is right!
Let's see....
...Fire extinguishers... check (2)
...Blaze cut... check
...Slap wcfvw69... check!
By the way, are you going to BBB, Bill? 
_________________
-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM |
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13701
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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| KentPS wrote: |
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
You'll be fine.. |
"Ouch" is right!
Let's see....
...Fire extinguishers... check (2)
...Blaze cut... check
...Slap wcfvw69... check!
By the way, are you going to BBB, Bill? |
I don't think I'm going to make BBB.. 
However, I will be in Escondido next week and WILL enjoy an Argusa's sandwich!
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
40+ years of VW repair, and VW parts and vehicle restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52739
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| As noted ....how far the scale is off.... probabaly does not make much difference in a valve adjustment.....on a bus with hydros.....but with solids and on the other type 4 injection systems it does make a difference. It can make even more so on an aftermarket cam depending on quickly the profile transitions from base circle to flank. |
So long as you are within */- 90° of TDC you can accurately adjust the valves with either hydraulic or solid lifters. You just need to be on the base circle of the cam for the valves you are adjusting. It is very possible to adjust all eight valves by setting the crankshaft in only two different positions. |
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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I swapped the timing scale today.
The new plastic one went in smoothly, as opposed to major amounts of fiddling back when I installed the metal one. I even remember now that at the time I had to bend it so that it wouldn't touch the pulley.
Here's what it looks like now. I originally rotated the engine to TDC with the metal scale, took the picture and then installed the plastic one, after which I took the second picture.
The difference in my case was nearly 2°, which isn't as big as the previous pictures in the thread, but I guess it depends on how you end up bending the scale. And I think that's the issue: while the plastic one is firm and goes only in one position, the metal one needs to be bent to install it. As soon as you do that, the 0° reference is gone (if there was ever one in the first place).
Before:
After:
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate
Last edited by furgo on Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 17764
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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| Busstom wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
6mm screws don't fit through the holes,
Yep, same here. Now guys, how freaking hard is it to make the holes fit a 6M bolt? |
About as easy as removing the paint from a starter pad
Gosh Gary, nobody wants to argue here, I sure don't like to, it's not nice, and it's not fun. And I would never argue with you, especially, as you are one of the most respected and knowledgeable contributors here on The Samba. But really...are you really missing the point of my post? Come on now. It's not that drilling or enlarging a couple of holes is a big deal (nor is removing some paint). It's the fact that, as I pointed out, undersized holes on this part are on a long list of shit wrong with a single part that I'm POSITIVE that the guy pushing them is well aware of...yet he does nothing about it. It's a repeating pattern of lousy quality control and manufacturing drift that...oh well, never mind. I guess I have no business pointing out issues in the Bay forum. Later. |
Bustom,
I just now noticed your post and I think you totally misunderstood what I was saying.
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Globusoverland
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 timing scale |
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Thank you all for sharing the info on the aftermarket scales.
It saved me time, frustration and money.
Will continue looking for an original metal scale for my 1800 AP engine.
(https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2091085) |
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