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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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 Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:36 am Post subject: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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I've been looking for a replacement front engine tin. Mine is rusted in places and slightly damaged where a PO welded it together with the cylinder tin (!).
It's nothing urgent, so I look at them whenever I see one pop up for sale. We don't have the luxury of The Samba classifieds where I live, and sending such big parts from the US usually costs more than the part itself. All that to say that you don't often see them available.
Anyway, whenever one pops up for sale I'm usually not near the bus, so I can't double-check which one I'd need for my '79 FI Federal.
I've seen at least two types, I'm not sure of how many variations there are. Here's a pic:
The difference seems to be in the number of holes and their positions.
Update:
Top (carbed engine)
1 - Large vacuum hose to brake booster
2 - Automatic transmission dipstick tube
3 - Dual carb accelerator cable
4 (notch) - ??
5 (notch)- ??
6 - To baffle plate for Intake air pre-heating (021 119 629 B)
7 - ??
8 - Alternator harness
Bottom (FI engine)
8 - Alternator harness
9 - Fuel rail
10 - Accelerator cable
11 - Fuel Pressure Regulator
After a quick search I could not see a thread on Type 4 front engine tin variations, so would anyone know which ones there were and for which years?
Or alternatively, knowing what the holes in the tin were for might help me recognize whether a tin that's not made for my engine would work without major modifications.
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate
Last edited by furgo on Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hazetguy
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10773
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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the upper one in your pic is for stock factory dual carb application. but then there is supposedly a '72 'only' tin too.
the one you are looking for will look more like the lower one in your pic, especially with the two threaded nuts on the lower right side.
there are many variations on this tin. it seems like almost every one i see is different. it's very confusing.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:48 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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| And keep in mind.....you can easily pick up a 411/412 front tin.....which had a couple of variations. I will post THAT diagram with part #s later....which may help to identify those if you see them. Ray |
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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Thanks all.
| hazetguy wrote: |
| the upper one in your pic is for stock factory dual carb application. but then there is supposedly a '72 'only' tin too. |
Ack. At least now I should be able to tell between carbs vs. FI front tin.
| hazetguy wrote: |
| the one you are looking for will look more like the lower one in your pic, especially with the two threaded nuts on the lower right side. |
Ok. Regarding the two threaded nuts, I think both variants on the picture have them. Only that with the poor light on the top pic they can't be seen well.
| hazetguy wrote: |
| there are many variations on this tin. it seems like almost every one i see is different. it's very confusing. |
To add to the confusion some sellers advertise Vanagon front tins as Bay Window ones  At least I can now tell between the two.
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| And keep in mind.....you can easily pick up a 411/412 front tin.....which had a couple of variations. I will post THAT diagram with part #s later....which may help to identify those if you see them. Ray |
I'd gladly use it, but 411/412 engine tins are even more rare over here. I do see some complete engines for sale sometimes, though.
The issue with part numbers on engine tin is that they are not stamped. At least on the NOS sled tin one I bought a while ago, the part number is on a sticker, which disintegrates after a few miles.
So you never know which actual part # you're getting when you buy used tins, unless you can compare them to known ones.
Thanks for the links, they've been already very useful in the past. However, on this one there is no talk about the different versions of front tin, and the microfiche only shows one diagram.
The pictures on that thread show yet another subvariant of my top picture:
Picture from Samba member pantone149, as far as I can tell
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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| furgo wrote: |
Picture from Samba member pantone149, as far as I can tell |
The squarish hole on the right side identifies it as a carburetor tin.
Overall I would say there are at least 6 different front tims, likely more. I just run the best of what I can find, add holes as necessary, and block off ones I don't need.
At one point way back when, I don't think I had any tin that was correct for my year as most of the tin on my original T4 powered Transporter was badly bastardized and I cobbed together tin from multiple Type 4 cars and buses to make up a complete set. |
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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Thanks all
I've figured out the function of a couple more of the tin holes. I'll update the original post as I learn more.
So essentially, if I want to use the engine tin at the top for my FI engine I'll have to:
• block off all holes and notches, except for the harness one (#8), which is common to the two types
• drill a new hole for the fuel rail (#9)
• drill a new hole for the fuel pressure regulator (#11)
• drill a new hole for the accelerator cable (10)
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate
Last edited by furgo on Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:53 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Tcash
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Tcash
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Gregg in the 603
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Joined: April 13, 2013
Posts: 404
Location: New Hampshire, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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The bottom tin, number 10 is where the throttle rod comes through the 'firewall'
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1979 Mexico Beige Westy auto
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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Updated diagram post with new findings. Thanks.
| Gregg in the 603 wrote: |
| The bottom tin, number 10 is where the throttle rod comes through the 'firewall' |
Indeed, here's a picture from ratwell:
| Tcash wrote: |
#43 Baffle plate for Intake air pre-heating (021 119 629 B) |
For those, like me, who didn't know what its function is:
| OrangeZA wrote: |
| The twin carb system does suffer from inlet manifold icing if not set up properly [...]. The engineers developed a preheating system that can take warm air from the bottom of the engine and feed it into a control box where it meets cold air fed in from a hose stretching to the right hand air intake. |
Here's a picture from macdonaldneal that shows it in place. It also shows what would seem to be a pipe that goes through hole #7:
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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tristessa
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Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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| furgo wrote: |
1 - some hose that goes to dual carbs
2 -
3 -
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1 - Large vacuum hose to brake booster
2 - A/T dipstick/dipstick tube
3 - Dual-carb throttle cable
HTH |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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As possible identification help for furgo and others...here are the four different firewall tins that came on type 4 CARS.
NOTE: some of these MAY be the same as bus but are here for reference of what may NOT fit your bus
The differences are interesting. For the bus...everyone notes that the square vertical stove pipe on the 1 and 2 side marks it as "carbs only".....while on 411 cars....the square vertical pre-heat pipe was used on carbs and through at least 1.5 years of D-jet fuel injection production. It fed pre-heated air to teh D-jet oil bath air cleaner through the 1971 model year.
I have not cross referenced the part #'s. Some of these may be the same part numbers a some bus firewall tin. I just thought this may help if you come across some odd bus tin that does not quite visually conform to what it should have. Ray |
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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Excellent thanks all.
| tristessa wrote: |
| 1 - Large vacuum hose to brake booster |
Is the brake booster hose routed differently on carbs vs. FI busses? On FI it does not go through the front engine tin, IIRC. Also the pictures I've seen of that hose on #1 seem to show it's a rubber one, not the usual rigid one used at least on FI. See it here as the braided hose on the far right of the picture.
Picture from www.averysaircooled.com
| tristessa wrote: |
| 2 - A/T dipstick/dipstick tube |
Nice one, thanks. Here's a picture of that, from Samba user Sage79:
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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Who can identify all the holes in this one?
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tristessa
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Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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| furgo wrote: |
| Is the brake booster hose routed differently on carbs vs. FI busses? On FI it does not go through the front engine tin, IIRC. |
The one factory-dual-carbed T4 Bus I've been mechanically intimate with -- a '73 Westy with a 003 automatic --had the booster hose connection routed through that hole in the tin, connected to engine vacuum via the balance tube between the manifolds.
Whether that's *correct* or not I have no idea. The poor thing had been dicked with over the years, and someone could have easily "made it work" that way because that's what their buddy's uncle's former roommate who had a SlugBug in high school said it goes there... |
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Who can identify all the holes in this one? |
Looks like someone was going for the "universal" fit!
| tristessa wrote: |
| furgo wrote: |
| Is the brake booster hose routed differently on carbs vs. FI busses? On FI it does not go through the front engine tin, IIRC. |
The one factory-dual-carbed T4 Bus I've been mechanically intimate with -- a '73 Westy with a 003 automatic --had the booster hose connection routed through that hole in the tin, connected to engine vacuum via the balance tube between the manifolds.
Whether that's *correct* or not I have no idea. The poor thing had been dicked with over the years, and someone could have easily "made it work" that way because that's what their buddy's uncle's former roommate who had a SlugBug in high school said it goes there... |
Ok, thanks.
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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