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Type 4 front engine tin variants
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furgo
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

I've been looking for a replacement front engine tin. Mine is rusted in places and slightly damaged where a PO welded it together with the cylinder tin (!).

It's nothing urgent, so I look at them whenever I see one pop up for sale. We don't have the luxury of The Samba classifieds where I live, and sending such big parts from the US usually costs more than the part itself. All that to say that you don't often see them available.

Anyway, whenever one pops up for sale I'm usually not near the bus, so I can't double-check which one I'd need for my '79 FI Federal.

I've seen at least two types, I'm not sure of how many variations there are. Here's a pic:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The difference seems to be in the number of holes and their positions.

Update:

Top (carbed engine)

1 - Large vacuum hose to brake booster
2 - Automatic transmission dipstick tube
3 - Dual carb accelerator cable
4 (notch) - ??
5 (notch)- ??

6 - To baffle plate for Intake air pre-heating (021 119 629 B)
7 - ??
8 - Alternator harness

Bottom (FI engine)

8 - Alternator harness
9 - Fuel rail
10 - Accelerator cable
11 - Fuel Pressure Regulator

After a quick search I could not see a thread on Type 4 front engine tin variations, so would anyone know which ones there were and for which years?

Or alternatively, knowing what the holes in the tin were for might help me recognize whether a tin that's not made for my engine would work without major modifications.
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Last edited by furgo on Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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hazetguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:44 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

the upper one in your pic is for stock factory dual carb application. but then there is supposedly a '72 'only' tin too.

the one you are looking for will look more like the lower one in your pic, especially with the two threaded nuts on the lower right side.

there are many variations on this tin. it seems like almost every one i see is different. it's very confusing.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

And keep in mind.....you can easily pick up a 411/412 front tin.....which had a couple of variations. I will post THAT diagram with part #s later....which may help to identify those if you see them. Ray
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

1972-73-74 Type IV (4) Engine Tins

75-78 Type 4 Engine Tin
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furgo
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

Thanks all.

hazetguy wrote:
the upper one in your pic is for stock factory dual carb application. but then there is supposedly a '72 'only' tin too.


Ack. At least now I should be able to tell between carbs vs. FI front tin.

hazetguy wrote:
the one you are looking for will look more like the lower one in your pic, especially with the two threaded nuts on the lower right side.


Ok. Regarding the two threaded nuts, I think both variants on the picture have them. Only that with the poor light on the top pic they can't be seen well.

hazetguy wrote:
there are many variations on this tin. it seems like almost every one i see is different. it's very confusing.


To add to the confusion some sellers advertise Vanagon front tins as Bay Window ones Shocked At least I can now tell between the two.

raygreenwood wrote:
And keep in mind.....you can easily pick up a 411/412 front tin.....which had a couple of variations. I will post THAT diagram with part #s later....which may help to identify those if you see them. Ray


I'd gladly use it, but 411/412 engine tins are even more rare over here. I do see some complete engines for sale sometimes, though.

The issue with part numbers on engine tin is that they are not stamped. At least on the NOS sled tin one I bought a while ago, the part number is on a sticker, which disintegrates after a few miles.

So you never know which actual part # you're getting when you buy used tins, unless you can compare them to known ones.

Tcash wrote:
1972-73-74 Type IV (4) Engine Tins

75-78 Type 4 Engine Tin


Thanks for the links, they've been already very useful in the past. However, on this one there is no talk about the different versions of front tin, and the microfiche only shows one diagram.

The pictures on that thread show yet another subvariant of my top picture:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Picture from Samba member pantone149, as far as I can tell
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

furgo wrote:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Picture from Samba member pantone149, as far as I can tell


The squarish hole on the right side identifies it as a carburetor tin.

Overall I would say there are at least 6 different front tims, likely more. I just run the best of what I can find, add holes as necessary, and block off ones I don't need.


At one point way back when, I don't think I had any tin that was correct for my year as most of the tin on my original T4 powered Transporter was badly bastardized and I cobbed together tin from multiple Type 4 cars and buses to make up a complete set.
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furgo
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

Thanks all

I've figured out the function of a couple more of the tin holes. I'll update the original post as I learn more.

So essentially, if I want to use the engine tin at the top for my FI engine I'll have to:

block off all holes and notches, except for the harness one (#8), which is common to the two types
drill a new hole for the fuel rail (#9)
drill a new hole for the fuel pressure regulator (#11)
drill a new hole for the accelerator cable (10)
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Last edited by furgo on Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:53 am; edited 4 times in total
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

1972-73-74 Type IV (4) Engine Tins

#43 Baffle plate for Intake air pre-heating
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

These may help.
Official Bay Window Engine pics, pix, pictures, thread FAQ
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...1036ebd359
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Gregg in the 603
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

The bottom tin, number 10 is where the throttle rod comes through the 'firewall'
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furgo
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

Updated diagram post with new findings. Thanks.

Gregg in the 603 wrote:
The bottom tin, number 10 is where the throttle rod comes through the 'firewall'

Indeed, here's a picture from ratwell:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Tcash wrote:

#43 Baffle plate for Intake air pre-heating (021 119 629 B)


For those, like me, who didn't know what its function is:
OrangeZA wrote:
The twin carb system does suffer from inlet manifold icing if not set up properly [...]. The engineers developed a preheating system that can take warm air from the bottom of the engine and feed it into a control box where it meets cold air fed in from a hose stretching to the right hand air intake.


Here's a picture from macdonaldneal that shows it in place. It also shows what would seem to be a pipe that goes through hole #7:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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tristessa
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

furgo wrote:
1 - some hose that goes to dual carbs
2 -
3 -

1 - Large vacuum hose to brake booster
2 - A/T dipstick/dipstick tube
3 - Dual-carb throttle cable

HTH
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

As possible identification help for furgo and others...here are the four different firewall tins that came on type 4 CARS.

NOTE: some of these MAY be the same as bus but are here for reference of what may NOT fit your bus

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The differences are interesting. For the bus...everyone notes that the square vertical stove pipe on the 1 and 2 side marks it as "carbs only".....while on 411 cars....the square vertical pre-heat pipe was used on carbs and through at least 1.5 years of D-jet fuel injection production. It fed pre-heated air to teh D-jet oil bath air cleaner through the 1971 model year.

I have not cross referenced the part #'s. Some of these may be the same part numbers a some bus firewall tin. I just thought this may help if you come across some odd bus tin that does not quite visually conform to what it should have. Ray
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furgo
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

Excellent thanks all.

tristessa wrote:
1 - Large vacuum hose to brake booster


Is the brake booster hose routed differently on carbs vs. FI busses? On FI it does not go through the front engine tin, IIRC. Also the pictures I've seen of that hose on #1 seem to show it's a rubber one, not the usual rigid one used at least on FI. See it here as the braided hose on the far right of the picture.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Picture from www.averysaircooled.com

tristessa wrote:
2 - A/T dipstick/dipstick tube


Nice one, thanks. Here's a picture of that, from Samba user Sage79:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

Who can identify all the holes in this one?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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tristessa
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

furgo wrote:
Is the brake booster hose routed differently on carbs vs. FI busses? On FI it does not go through the front engine tin, IIRC.

The one factory-dual-carbed T4 Bus I've been mechanically intimate with -- a '73 Westy with a 003 automatic --had the booster hose connection routed through that hole in the tin, connected to engine vacuum via the balance tube between the manifolds.

Whether that's *correct* or not I have no idea. The poor thing had been dicked with over the years, and someone could have easily "made it work" that way because that's what their buddy's uncle's former roommate who had a SlugBug in high school said it goes there...
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furgo
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 front engine tin variants Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Who can identify all the holes in this one?


Looks like someone was going for the "universal" fit!

tristessa wrote:
furgo wrote:
Is the brake booster hose routed differently on carbs vs. FI busses? On FI it does not go through the front engine tin, IIRC.

The one factory-dual-carbed T4 Bus I've been mechanically intimate with -- a '73 Westy with a 003 automatic --had the booster hose connection routed through that hole in the tin, connected to engine vacuum via the balance tube between the manifolds.

Whether that's *correct* or not I have no idea. The poor thing had been dicked with over the years, and someone could have easily "made it work" that way because that's what their buddy's uncle's former roommate who had a SlugBug in high school said it goes there...


Ok, thanks.
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