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iambillsmith
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: pittsburgh
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 Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:45 am Post subject: Transmission Whine |
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My '84 1.9L, has developed a noticeable whine when up over 35 MPH or so. It is obviously the transmission. I drained the oil (less than a year old) and didnt see any chunks of metal just the normal stuff on the magnet.
I plan on dropping the transmission to check the throw out bearing and pilot bearing but if they are fine I will need a rebuild.
That being said i have two trips planned then i can park it for the winter and have the tranny rebuilt. Less than 1000 miles combined. good idea or no? |
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Pinetops
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2007
Posts: 2987
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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I thought mine was whining but it turned out to be a loose axle nut. Just something simple to check just in case.
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"A rolling bus gathers no rust." |
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Gnarlodious
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2013
Posts: 2404
Location: Bonners Ferry Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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Mine ran low on oil once on a long hot summer road back from where I got it. Turns out it had half inch of caked on crud, it really pays to keep the metal clean for cooling.
From then on it whined it top gear, not too bad but it got worse over the next 120k miles. Then when I put the turbodiesel in it got worse fast.
Had it rebuilt, turned out the 5ᵀᴴ gear was pitted from heat way back. Can’t complain though, the gear lasted 220k miles, more than half of it while damaged.
So now I keep the oil topped up and the cooling fins clean.
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Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10627
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:05 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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| iambillsmith wrote: |
| I drained the oil (less than a year old) and didnt see any chunks of metal just the normal stuff on the magnet. |
What most people call 'normal' is a trans shedding bearing metal like there's no tomorrow. Chunks are much worse though.  Any idea how many miles?
Changing trans oil within a year puts you in the upper echelon of transaxle maintnance. Did your magnet have any clear areas this time (or last time)? Or was it completely covered? Did you take pics?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 18720
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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Does it whine in all the gears? Does it whine if you shift it into neutral while rolling at 35mph? Does the noise change if you are on and off the power?
I can pretty much bet that the noise is not related to your throw out bearing or the pilot bearing. I would spend more time trying to determine what is causing the noise before I would condemn the transaxle. |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 8245
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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Ours whined in 3rd at first, then 4th. It was worse when fully hot, and stopped immediately when putting in the clutch.
We limped it 6,000 miles before a rebuild, but there's no guarantees here.
Hugely recommend Bill Capatch at Arizona Transaxle.
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1984 Westfailure/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s
AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." — Colin Chapman |
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iambillsmith
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| iambillsmith wrote: |
| I drained the oil (less than a year old) and didnt see any chunks of metal just the normal stuff on the magnet. |
What most people call 'normal' is a trans shedding bearing metal like there's no tomorrow. Chunks are much worse though. Any idea how many miles?
Changing trans oil within a year puts you in the upper echelon of transaxle maintnance. Did your magnet have any clear areas this time (or last time)? Or was it completely covered? Did you take pics? |
Oil was free of any metal chunks. Magnet was not covered there were bare areas. |
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iambillsmith
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
Does it whine in all the gears? Does it whine if you shift it into neutral while rolling at 35mph? Does the noise change if you are on and off the power?
I can pretty much bet that the noise is not related to your throw out bearing or the pilot bearing. I would spend more time trying to determine what is causing the noise before I would condemn the transaxle. |
Does not whine in neutral or while clutch pedal is down.
does not whine in first gear as it needs to get up to 35 or so to hear it |
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iambillsmith
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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| E1 wrote: |
Ours whined in 3rd at first, then 4th. It was worse when fully hot, and stopped immediately when putting in the clutch.
We limped it 6,000 miles before a rebuild, but there's no guarantees here.
Hugely recommend Bill Capatch at Arizona Transaxle. |
sounds about right. i just want to get a phish festy in august out fo the way then i can park it and get it rebuild by a guy out here on east coast. |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 18720
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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| Quote: |
| Does not whine in neutral or while clutch pedal is down. |
Going 35 miles per hour you shift to neutral or push the clutch in letting the van coast and the noise goes away?
If you get on and off the power rolling along in gear at 35 does the noise change? |
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Waldi
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Joined: February 28, 2014
Posts: 1752
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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I am pretty sure your 1000 mile trip will cost you a new r+p plus, if you dont get broke on the street.
Especialy if you are one of the "need to drive fast bcs of the traffic"
But hey, change the oil and your box will last forever  |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52300
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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| You could have bearing noise, bearings would not have to shed much metal to become noisy, but once the bearings begin to get loose and the gears aren't running as well aligned as they should be the gears will begin to shed metal and then will run noisy even after you put new bearings in. Best to tear into the box as soon as a noise appears. |
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iambillsmith
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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| Decided to go with the safe option and tear the tranny out this weekend and ship to shop to be rebuilt monday. Hopefully get it back in a couple weeks, get it back on, and roll |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10627
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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Care to share what shop to ship?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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iambillsmith
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: pittsburgh
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sandcough
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2011
Posts: 80
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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Matt’s great,
He knows his stuff. Highly recommended. |
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derkm
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Torrance California
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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I recently installed a GW decoupler and changed oil on transaxle and diff. no chunks just fuzz. The thing is now I have a whine in 1st and 2nd when under power. Old fluid was Redline and new gear oil is Swepco 210. Never had any noise except for a little grind going into 3rd. Is it possible my decoupler is noisy or new oil could have this effect?
87 Tintop Syncro
1.8t SAH
16" wheels
Fox suspension |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10627
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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| derkm wrote: |
| Is it possible my decoupler is noisy or new oil could have this effect? |
I think.... all you have to do to eliminate the decoupler is to verify it works properly. If it can actually "shift the coupler" it's very unlikely that it has any other problem.
I can "imagine" a very heavy oil having a "whirr" when cold, that goes away upon warming. This is a guess (very wishful/hopeful).
Fuzz on your drainplug is "small chunks" of steel that are thankfully small. Some are from shifting dogs, from crunching into 3rd. They may have come from a rolling element that is getting smaller. Gears, R&P and pinion bearing, mainshaft bearing are losing steel into your lubricant, getting "loose", contaminating the lubricant in a vicious circle that creates MORE fuzz. The whine noise is probably a loose bearing. No oil can fix that, but removing contamination often "could" nurse more miles out of it.
The fuzz even though small, are many times bigger (like 30x bigger) than the oil film thickness. Consequently each particle circulating in your lubricant is causing frequent metal-to-metal contact in a mechanical device where rolling element longevity is dependent upon oil-film separation between the metal parts. No metal to metal.
Gotta get that stuff out whenever you can. Old trans = more often. Big engine (180HP?) = more often.
Old trans + big engine = more + more often.
Maintained properly, your drain plug should have clear areas on it (while the trans is healthy). If completely covered that says two things. 1) you waited much too long to change your oil and 2) your transaxle has aged significantly, where a large contributor to the fuzz was likely #1).
Aging transaxles is a painful chapter of the Antique vehicle story. Especially when putting huge engines onto this old drivetrain, it's strange that stepping up the maintenance of the poor old fella is not part of (most people's) modification plan. Not saying you didn't, but most people don't, it's not in the culture. I didn't a few short years ago (and paid the price). But I'm paying attention now and I think more people are, especially if their checkbook is smokin'.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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derkm
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Torrance California
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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Thank you Sodo for the input. I guess I have a little of the TA paranoia. Im always awaiting the nest strange sound from my van. The advice on gear oil is sound. Flush that stuff out when possible or it recirculates as an abrasive. I have 106K original unrebuilt miles on TA and hoping to treat it right to avoid a syncro syndrome. Again thank you for your time.
87 Tintop Syncro
1.8t SAH
Fox Shocks
106k |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10627
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Transmission Whine |
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| derkm wrote: |
| I have 106K original unrebuilt miles on TA and hoping to treat it right to avoid a syncro syndrome. |
Sodo's opinion----> Being '87, your TA has the old style 3rd/4th slider hub that has the "square corners" (where the hub starts to crack). VW rounded the corners appx 1989.5, but the rounded corners crack too. You mention a little trouble getting into 3rd gear. That can be the slider hub flexing due to cracks. I'd be real careful unleashing 180hp to that trans....
Your trans having 106k miles likely has lots of "still valuable" parts in it. It's much different situation than the guy who has 220k and the oil only been changed 2x since new (and run for thousands of miles AFTER 'noisy'.) It seems you agree that paying attn to the lubricant condition is essential. Consider buying a magnetic drainplug for your oil filler hole that you can check easily to give an idea what might be down at the bottom.
Knowing about 3rd gear hubs and its complaints going into 3rd gear, and having over-engined it, and the possibility of lots of low-mile (high-quality original german parts) in your immediate possession
..... you might consider finding a reliable builder to freshen up that trans for the long haul. Find one who respects what you are doing (a pre-emptive repair on your low-mile trans). The guy who suggests you "exchange it", (keeping your valuable 106k) is not the builder you want. Freshen up that trans BEFORE it goes thru a stage of running in its own barf. You may have a good long run ahead (if kept clean in the future too). You want the builder who's excited to see a nice trans inside and happy to work for someone who's taking care of their trans.
Don't make the mistake that "lugging = going easy on the trans". Having doubts about 3rd might make you think you should get to 4th gear sooner, but the 4th gear idler has a weakness too (erosion at the mainshaft bearing) that many builders think is exacerbated by lugging the engine. Especially with a turbo that can lag a little then pound on 4th when the manifold pressure builds. So basically you WANT a good 3rd gear that you can use whenever you feel like its easier on the drivetrain.
Sorry I hope this doesn't make you feel more paranoid, but more educated how you drive that "big engine/small trans drivetrain".
I've driven a "lightweight" 1.8T tintop (syncro) what a dream vehicle you have!
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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