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Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:

To repeat what this unit does......, the "latching relay" uses a momentary button-press to start the pump, (or whatever). If you turn off the vehicle ignition, the relay "cancels"(shuts off). If you turn the vehicle ignition on again, the pump does not restart (unless you push the momentary button again).


Those functions are incidental, the main function is it toggles on and off with the momentary switch.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Sodo wrote:

To repeat what this unit does......, the "latching relay" uses a momentary button-press to start the pump, (or whatever). If you turn off the vehicle ignition, the relay "cancels"(shuts off). If you turn the vehicle ignition on again, the pump does not restart (unless you push the momentary button again).


Those functions are incidental, the main function is it toggles on and off with the momentary switch.


A momentary switch and it's tiny wires are handy. But for this application its main function is the "cancel". If you are driving the van with the pump on, then stop for the evening, it needs to "cancel". Pumping thick gear oil at 25*F the next morning can be very hard on the pump, and you may pop fuses.

This latching relay, combined with a temperature (or speed) controller, constitutes a fully automatic system where anyone can drive the van. Side benefit is an anal retentive MOFO can goof around with it while driving. Also useful for changing oil etc, letting people listen to it etc Wink.
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I'll say it again, my goal was a simpler, smaller on/off toggling relay. Opening on power down is handy, but incidental. If the latter is the function you desire, that's you, but that's not why I designed the circuit. Try not to get out over MY skis here, Tom.

If you just want a circuit that latches closed with a momentary switch and opens on power off, you just branch the 87 output of any SPST or SPDT relay to the coil input, couldn't be easier. If you want that controlled by a low-current vehicle-on circuit, you can use it to remotely trigger your high-current relay closer to the load.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Waterskis or snow skis? Wink Perhaps parking in warmer climes, lighter gear oil, and robust gear-oil pumps it's not a concern.

A latching relay circuit is great to have in your bag of tricks for any high-amperage electrical device a fella might add, and yours is elegantly simple. I heard of it but could not find a schematic (to build it) in time for my project. So I built the 4-relay contraption and its working, but I don't like looking at it when I'm under the dash.

tencentlife wrote:
If you just want a circuit that latches closed with a momentary switch and opens on power off, you just branch the 87 output of any SPST or SPDT relay to the coil input, couldn't be easier. If you want that controlled by a low-current vehicle-on circuit, you can use it to remotely trigger your high-current relay closer to the load.


With that method, the momentary turns the pump on, but to turn off the pump you'd have to "cycle" the ignition key. That's "not for me" because I wanna goof around with it while driving. Wink Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Just got back from an 1158 miles eclipse-chasing trip. I have a run-timer module connected to my pump and with the temp controller set at 140*F ---- the pump ran for 4 hours 42 minutes during that 1158 miles. 1158 miles at 50mph avg is about 23 hours so the temp controller ran the pump about 1/6th of the time. Outside temp was generally HOT summer, around 85 degrees. All day long the temp cycles from 136*F to 143*F. the highest temp I saw was 145*F.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Heres a pic of the run-timer module.

It pumps @ 2 gals/minute, thus filters all of the trans oil twice every minute, so in 4:42 (=282 minutes) it filtered the oil "564 times".

Details, details Wink Wink Wink .
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I was just thinking on your reference to 25°F temps and pumping oil.

If it is an issue then maybe...
The routing of the oil lines from the outlet on the gearbox up to your oil cooler has them out there in the elements under the vehicle you could task one of the coolant hoses for the heater to run alongside the oil lines to warm them up as opposed to being chilled by the elements, (snow, ice-water puddles, rain).
It's winter, the colder air over the cooler will cool your temps down to the desired gearbox oil temps as opposed to having the oil maintain the hot water temps I would think...don't know until it is tried!
Once the engine and gearbox reached operating temp I do not think it would be needed except for the initial starting of the circulation.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I think the reality is,,, after the trans warms up____AND____ if you had a reason to run the pump at 25*F,,,, then for a few seconds the pump would work hard, once it gets the warm oil from the trans all is better. I don't think you have to design for this unusual condition (running pump at 25*F).

I think effort should be spent to prevent it from accidentally running at low temp. For example if you had a "manual" switch, that "got left on" the night before when you parked the van. Then next morning you wake up, it's 25*F and (someone) switches on the ignition key. You don't want the pump to start up and try to pump 25*F gear oil, so you want some sort of key-cancel to prevent that.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

It would be interesting to activate the pump whenever vehicle HP exceeds the WBX 82HP. This is assuming that 4th gear only needs cooling if more than 82 HP is passing thru 4th gear. Scanguage will output a HP number, but I wonder how you might activate a pump based on a HP number. PCForno used vehicle speed to activate his pump. That's a logical plan.

But my current most darling "idea" for temperature control is to monitor the temp of hot oil thrown off 4th gear to activate the pump. Im positive I can do it but don't know how this can be pre-tested.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


NOTE this pic was lifted from another thread simply because I can describe the location. And the link has some info describing how its known that the oil is thrown onto the wall.

I'd place a sensor on left side wall, appx location of the word "4th idler" in this pic. Nobody to my knowledge, has done this yet.
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Last edited by Sodo on Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I’ve left my pump switch on before and it only takes a second to realize it when the gear oil is really cold. The pump growls. But I’ve become accustomed to looking at the switches before I turn the key. Now that the summer heat is here the transaxle is always up to temperature. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Nice job !
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

What about a probe like a thin bulb? Drilled perpendicularly to the bearing? Or since it's moving 2gpm, just wait for the return temp sensor to be activated.Or have some kind of program that sees the temps ramping up at a certain rate, u know it's getting too hot?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

We also want to know the temperature of 4th gear idler which is isolated, riding on needle bearings. 4th gear idler has oil contact and radiance to shed its heat but the conduction path is not reliable. It has contact to the 3/4 slider hub. We want to know if 4th gear approaches 330*F (that would be bad Crying or Very sad ).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Do infrared probes exist? One that could point at it to read its temp?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

From a few posts above.....^^
Sodo wrote:
I'd place a sensor on left side wall, appx location of the word "4th idler" in this pic. Nobody to my knowledge, has done this yet.


I've been using 'average" transaxle oil temperature from the bottom of the sump to control the cooler,
but Wizardry has occurred on TheSamba and dutifully shared by 87VanWes p13)
Below was written on his thread on P15 (way back in Jan 2017).

87vanwes wrote:
I did go a little outside of the box on my trans cooler setup. The sensor is positioned not in the sump oil, but where the oil comes directly off fourth gear. I saw shocking temps on my short trips. Over 220F at 65mph on a 70 degree day without the cooling running.


This method of reading the temperature of oil thrown from the hottest gear, (4th gear idler) is a great development.
I saw it awhile back but it didn't occur to me how to incorporate the idea since my trans was in-car already. Then I kinda forgot about it. Embarassed
But now its winter again ..... project time.
I'll change my pump/cooler control to turn on as soon as the 4th gear idler starts to get hot.
...not wait until the whole sump (and 110lbs of transaxle) warms up.

I'll use an A/B switch between the two, to understand the difference and behavior better.

"X" marks the spot for the temperature sensor.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can see where the oil is thrown off the 4th gear idler, where the oil blast passes between the shift rods. Uopper rod is 3/4th, middle rod is reverse(+granny on Syncro).
The metal bits in the oil (from this trashed transaxle) have sand-blasted the wall of this transaxle gear carrier case, even pock-marked it. (see closeup pic?)

I drilled a horizontal test-hole in this housing, and then started planning how to drill it with the transaxle "in-car".
So before drilling, I called Syncroshop to powwow, and we batted the idea around for awhile of drilling it "on-car".
And then arrived on angling the sensor sideways for a quicker response from the hot oil blast from 4th gear.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Which yielded the second benefit!
The "X" location is pretty far up on the side of the trans, where theres no access to drill it "on-car".
Exclamation But angling the hole 45deg on the cylindrical boss you can drill it from below the van. Exclamation

Exclamation Wink Like "tomorrow". Wink Exclamation

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So I made a special "drill jig" that bolts to the trans, using this trashed gear carrier (a trans case part). With the jig I can replicate the hole location on my working trans "in-car". I'll pressurize the transaxle with compressed air to drive most of the magnesium bits OUT. I'm no longer concerned about magnesium flakes in the oil. Magnesium is a soft metal thats almost a 'lubricant' to steel. And the way magnesium drills, the chips are very thin. I have a wicked filtration system that exchanges the entire lubricant contents twice per minute - the swarf will be captured quickly.

Another way to think about it is this.......while (many!) other fellers are driving around with STEEL in their lubricant for 20,000 (30, 40, 90k) miles, Shocked
a few soft metal flakes are nothing to steel gears/bearings, even if you didn't have a pump/filtration system. They will roll out to little tinfoil flakes that incidentally have gear oil's EP additives adhered to them, slippery like wet leaves on the ground. Not a worry, but might as well remove them if you can.

(...cue the drumbeat to change your transaxle lubricant often, keep it clean like your engine oil ! )

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


21/64" hole - tapped for the 1/8-27 NPT thread temperature well.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The brass temperature well .... and a temp sender.... that will be epoxied into the well.

Anyway, thanks 87VanWes for thinking out of the box!
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....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
One apple every 8 hours will keep 3 doctors away - B Kliban


Last edited by Sodo on Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:55 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I like this mod a LOT !! NOW it makes sense to have a temp actuated relay, whereas it really didn't before (triggered too late).
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

That's a great improvement Sodo, thanks again for sharing!

What sensor part number are you using?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:
What sensor part number are you using?


The "temperature well" is part# SODO-X Laughing Laughing

Sensor is from the inkbird electronic controller, I don't know the specs or part#.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
ALIKA T3 wrote:
What sensor part number are you using?


The "temperature well" is part# SODO-X Laughing Laughing

Sensor is from the inkbird electronic controller, I don't know the specs or part#.


Thanks bro!

I did see the well was brazed at home Wink

Do you know at what temperature it turns on and off at least?

Aloha Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
ALIKA T3 wrote:
What sensor part number are you using?


The "temperature well" is part# SODO-X Laughing Laughing

Sensor is from the inkbird electronic controller, I don't know the specs or part#.

If you could get your temperature sensor specs you could replace it with an 1/8” OD metal sheathed sensor and eliminate the thermowell. A compression fitting could be used to hold the sensor in place. Hell, since the case is under little to no pressure and you are above the oil level, you could probably get away with sliding the sensor in to an 1/8” hole, securing it on the outside, and sealing it up with your goop of choice.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

SteveMc wrote:
ALIKA T3 wrote:
Sodo wrote:
ALIKA T3 wrote:
What sensor part number are you using?

Sensor is from the inkbird electronic controller, I don't know the specs or part#.
Do you know at what temperature it turns on and off at least?
If you could get your temperature sensor specs...


OK you guys I know it's been a long time Laughing
I'm using the electronic temperature controller from this post on p1. Which appears to be the same unit SteveMC's suggested 4 posts above that.

The controller is fully programmable. I can set the on/off temperatures anywhere between 50F and 210F. And it serves as a digital gauge. So you can use it for your transaxle temp gauge and then sometime later, employ the controller features. In the meantime you can use the controller feature to activate a dash warning light at any temperature you wanna be alerted to. Its a 10amp relay; iDoug could use it to turn on a loud buzzer and all his perineum lighting! Shocked

The controller, and stainless mounting bracket and Weddle-sized (3/4-16) temperature well from the above link is for sale in the samba classifieds item #11. It hasn't sold probably because it's not a complete kit (missing the LED override button and key-cancel device item #9). It's an ideal kit for anyone who already has a Weddle-thermo-switch-sized hole in their trans. I'll get it together as a complete plug-and-play system and re-list it soon.

Steve MC you are right you could use a goop like JBweld. But note it's more than "just above oil level". The goop must be strong enough to withstand an oil blast at temperatures of 220F (per 87VanWes). And hopefully not a steel-particles bead-blast (under those conditions). Shocked
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....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
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Last edited by Sodo on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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