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BIGMIKEY
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2007
Posts: 1138
Location: North East Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Convert at Subaru boxer to run backwards / CCW ? |
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| saabmosare wrote: |
Will use one of those setups:
VW 1,9 TDI PD engine with longitudinal mounted gearbox + 1,26 RBGs
Subaru EJ20 engine with 5MT Gearbox + 1,26 RBGs
Both setups can be manual or automatic, haven't decided what to choose for myself yet. Depend on what shows up for sale I guess. |
What is an 1,26RBGs ?
EDITED
Ah haa. Reduction gear Boxes. Wait, if you use the Subaru drivetrain as is, with no reversing of the Subaru engine, the Reduction Boxes will reverse the axle rotation due to having just 2 gears in the RGB.
Mike T
_________________
BIGMIKEY
Deserter Series 1 project.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=787047&highlight=
1973 Beetle Driver, Marina Blue.
Last edited by BIGMIKEY on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:07 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1313
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Convert at Subaru boxer to run backwards / CCW ? |
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I'm just curious , if it is going into a Baja , what diameter rear tyres are you planning on running ? if you are going for 31inch or larger make sure the gear ratios will match the torque of the engine for the type of driving you are planning on doing .
a 002 or 091 with a low R&P and a ZF LSD is an great box for a Baja .
Another alternative is a UN5 Renault 5 speed . These were used a lot in Australia for off road racing a while ago . |
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saabmosare
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2018
Posts: 38
Location: Scandinavia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Convert at Subaru boxer to run backwards / CCW ? |
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Anyone have some CV joints to recoment? What degree of freedom will I get from each? What options are people using?
| oprn wrote: |
The Corvair engine is the only one that comes to mind for me.
Mind you I haven't checked that Wisconsin but I believe you would disqualify that one on the "of interest" basis!  |
Some older friends of mine always mention this engine. But I want a newer engine for my project. Wisconsin is far from Scandinavia. 
| Tom_Kathleen wrote: |
| We have a Subaru engine in a Manx buggy. When we got the engine from Outback (now Outfront) Motorsports, they said never turn the engine backwards, because the cam belts would slip and loose timing causing the valves to hit the pistons. Tom |
I see. But I can't understand how the belt can slip? Should not be possible with the design..
| gprudenciop wrote: |
| If you want to run a subaru engine just do what I did and buy a reversed rotation transmission/ring and pinion kit from subarugears.com and you are done. 5 speed and and goes with the engine so no adapters. |
I know its possible, but for that money I can do a lot of other things. Decided to use RGBs instead. The 1,26, 1,39 and 1,4 will all be okey for my application. 1,26 would be the best ones in combination with larger tires and my intended engine.
| lelef wrote: |
revers rotation of a Subaru engine should not be very easy ,thinking about it is simple but during the work you will find problems problems and problems that means a lot of money
use the stock Subaru EFI could not be more practical than a complete new system like Megasquirt
Is not so easy work on a Subaru engine and parts are expensive
The 002 bus transaxle is strong, probably the 092 is also better and are both able to handle the Subaru hp but is needed to flip them for reverse rotation
Mid engine ? std gearbox and std engine
But really today with less money you can built a powerful air cooled engine with also a lot less problems |
I wanna use the same engine and transmission as a kit for simplicity. It will give me a lot of bang for the bucks. Mid mounting the engine was an option also but it requires more effort here to get it registered. Rear mounted engine is therefore required for my application. And taking an EJ20 or 1,9 TDI will give me a great engine for the money. You will be surprised when I am done. I promise. The only cons I can see is the added weight, water-cooled, and added complicity. But for me it's all fine. The RGBs solved a lot for me.
| theDrew wrote: |
years ago, I remember some dude on the Vanagon forum doing a reversed rotation engine. He got it working, but he had to do some pretty crazy things to make it all work. Maybe I can find the thread.
Definitely not easy, but can it be done, sure! anythings possible with enough time, determination and money |
Please show me, I got connected to a guy reversing a VAG 1,8T successfully also but if you know another engine I would love to read a bit. I admire people who generally know technology, not just bolting on components like Lego. However, I love Lego also. 
| BIGMIKEY wrote: |
| saabmosare wrote: |
Will use one of those setups:
VW 1,9 TDI PD engine with longitudinal mounted gearbox + 1,26 RBGs
Subaru EJ20 engine with 5MT Gearbox + 1,26 RBGs
Both setups can be manual or automatic, haven't decided what to choose for myself yet. Depend on what shows up for sale I guess. |
What is an 1,26RBGs ?
EDITED
Ah haa. Reduction gear Boxes. Wait, if you use the Subaru drivetrain as is, with no reversing of the Subaru engine, the Reduction Boxes will reverse the axle rotation due to having just 2 gears in the RGB.
Mike T |
| Wreck wrote: |
I'm just curious , if it is going into a Baja , what diameter rear tyres are you planning on running ? if you are going for 31inch or larger make sure the gear ratios will match the torque of the engine for the type of driving you are planning on doing .
a 002 or 091 with a low R&P and a ZF LSD is an great box for a Baja .
Another alternative is a UN5 Renault 5 speed . These were used a lot in Australia for off road racing a while ago . |
Most likely it will be used on road and forest roads in Scandinavia. If it ever hit a desert I'll be super happy. But I don't think it will ever happen. My target is 29-31 a little depending on the RGBs I manage to source. The reduction boxes and wheels will more or less even out making the engine behave "normal", both the boxer and TDI will have a good amount of torque and I already checked all the speeds with my intended gear ratios. Haven't decided if I should pick a manual or an automatic trans yet. Opinions? Personally, I love driving an automatic, its just smooth al the time. But ofc, it will give you no racing feeling at all and remove my maskulinity. |
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lelef
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2013
Posts: 215
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Convert at Subaru boxer to run backwards / CCW ? |
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ok with reduction boxes no need to reverse rotation
was used a lot of years ago in off roading
vw split reduction boxes ,probably the easiest way to do what you want -> https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4924723 |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1313
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Convert at Subaru boxer to run backwards / CCW ? |
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I missed the bit about the reduction boxes . That will bring the ratios up to suit the bigger tyres.
I own the Split ,it has bay running gear with 002 gears . A good friend owns the Bay ,it has reductions boxes with an upside-down 091 box . He made his own stub axles for the reductions by cutting down the swing axle and getting splines cut to suit a gearbox CV flange .
He's moving to a Renault UN5 without the reductions in the next rebuild . with 35in tyres and a lot of weight the boxes flex and brake gears .
For CV joints I would recommend going straight to 930 CV's for the extra movement . BlindChickenRacing.com has a lot of info on CV angles . |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14779
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Convert at Subaru boxer to run backwards / CCW ? |
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| I would be interested to see how you go about converting reduction boxes to IRS. |
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BIGMIKEY
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2007
Posts: 1138
Location: North East Pennsylvania
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14779
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Convert at Subaru boxer to run backwards / CCW ? |
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| That is pretty cool! I see there is mention made of the weird rear hop that the reductions give you. It is the strangest feeling to have the rear of the car hump up when you get on it. A neighbor of Dad's had a home made buggy with reductions that they were trying to do wheel stands with. It doesn't work with reductions so they abused it until eventually the transaxle broke in half right over the ring and pinion. |
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saabmosare
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2018
Posts: 38
Location: Scandinavia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:59 am Post subject: Re: Convert at Subaru boxer to run backwards / CCW ? |
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| saabmosare wrote: |
Backround
I've always had a thing for Type 1 beetles since I was a child, but it never made any sense to buy one since they are literally useless as a daily car. But I finally decided a Baja Bug with a Subaru engine would be a perfect car for me to use as an alternative for my daily one, it would also make sense since I have a reason traveling forest roads sometimes. On top of this, I enjoy building, as all of us.
So to the question. Have anyone any experience, know someone who tried or have any input for me on trying to run a Subaru engine backwards?
Why?
If I can make the engine run backwards I have an affordable engine, a gearbox strong enough and a low gear. All of this would fit me perfect. I mean, perfect. No, I don't want to flip another gearbox around. I want to pick as much as possible from a donor car to get more modern functionality but my bug look.
What I know so far:
Pistons are not affected on a change from CW to CCW.
Camshafts seams to be designed in a way so it does not matter what way they rotate. They lift and close at the same pace regardless of rotation and the angle between the vales is the important thing.
Ignition should be solved by rearranging the order of the cylinders, the timing in between the spark will be the same.
Water pump, oil pump and the generator are on the same belt with tensioning wheels. Based on what I have seen so far it should not be any major problem to rearrange the order to make them spin the right direction in CCW.
Actually, I believe the only thing needed would be to adjust the timing of the camshaft and belt to open and close for rotation CCW rather than CW. Can it really be that simple? Opinions?
Since adjusting the belt would also allow the motor to use the exhaust side as the exhaust side still. Because the valves would behave just as before. Just in another timing.
Would I possibly have any lubricating problems from the motor spinning the other direction? I'm thinking if the rotation is used to throw oil at some special places etc.
I'm quite familiar with motors and gearboxes and got an engineering background. But I have never ever before felt such a need for running an engine backwards.
Solution:
I came to a conclusion recently on how to solve my problem. I'll list them all here, and in the initial post for others to follow if you have the same issues.
I'll pick one of the following combinations for my purpose. They both offer a great and reliable engine and a very affordable price/performance ratio. Engine and gearbox are already mounted so no adapters needed. The only issue is the RBGs, but I don't think it will be any major issues while I anyway will rebuild the IRS. So better do all changes at one place instead of everywhere.
Will use one of those setups:
VW 1,9 TDI PD engine with longitudinal mounted gearbox + 1,26 RBGs
Subaru EJ20 engine with 5MT Gearbox + 1,26 RBGs
Both setups can be manual or automatic, haven't decided what to choose for myself yet. Depend on what shows up for sale I guess.
Pros and cons VW
A lot of torque and low HP. Perfect for insurance and tax purposes since they don't care about the torque while I do. Low fuel consumption and considered a great engine for longevity. Higher centre of mass than the Subaru engine so will be more unstable in corners.
Pros and cons Subaru
Boxer engine with a low mass centre. Will handle great in an old car and give it great handling. High revs and great sound. Decent torque for a petrol engine. Considered a great engine that lasts very long. Can use the Subagears if I somehow don't manage to source the RBGs. Pricy, but a solution.
Other ways to solve it
Some other ways to solve the issues I found but decided to not follow.
Reverse rotation on the engine. VAG 1,8T seams to be okay, I haven't found anything that says it won't be possible on the Subaru EJ20 engine either. My concern is spinning the gearbox the wrong direction in the long run. If the engine was not a tail engine it's important to keep the crank rotation in the opposite direction compared to the wheels to make the car stay stable.
Flipping a gearbox upsidedown. Seams not too complicated but will change the mounting of the engine to a lower stance, not something I'm too keen on. The gearboxes seem to handle it well, keep in mind that new vent and so on is needed, and you probably need to find a new oil level based on your setup.
RBGs for obvious reasons, thanks for the suggestion guys! This helped me a lot. Both the 1,26 and 1,40 would be okay for my application.
Subagear pinion and crown wheel. Pricy but solves your issue quickly. |
For anyone of you who are interested in following me and what I do. I'll post all things in under this topic in the future since I know got a car with plenty of to be done on. I won't buy as many bolt-on kits as people here seems to be used to. So save your time reading if that's important for you.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8988153#8988153 |
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