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67 Sunroof Engine Build
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:59 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

I've built more toyotas than Vw's
I even did one for Santa Claus himself.
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

modok wrote:
I've built more toyotas than Vw's
I even did one for Santa Claus himself.


What????? Hahaha
You aren’t confusing me. It’s a lot to take in but I like reading/learning it.
I said I liked physics!
That tolerance seems waaay to tight for me. .002 is believable but .0002 is pretty crazy. Yes, tolerances in today’s modern vehicles are much better and that is why my wife’s expedition (sorry I mentioned that in a VW forum) runs 0w20. She has 220,000 miles on it and I run Mobil synthetic and always a GOOD filter. Still kicking though!

Ns-supposedly the whole rotating assembly was balanced by CB. They balance to within a gram. I already had a brand new pressure plate/flywheel but, instead of sending it out to them for the balancing, I just bought it from them so they would do the balancing with my HUGE order.
I am off Wednesday. Maybe I’ll take the trip. Have to check my calendar man.
And, BOTH OF YOU, I really, really, really appreciate the advice and help.
I have the Wilson, Muir, Bentley’s and have read through many times but I am a “hands on” learner unfortunately.
You gotta start somewhere!
Back on topic...
Would oil being slung from the rod under the piston RETAIN heat instead of carrying it away?
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

All the oil flying around inside the engine makes the temperature more even, cools whatever is hot, and heats whatever is cold. That's almost always a good thing.
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Interesting link to oil restrictor plug feeding the #4 bearings.!!
Yes, it is a PLANE site but good info nonetheless...
http://www.greatplainsas.com/service1.html


Last edited by 67 Sunroof on Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

YES!
And while i have no REAL proof...

I suspect, that that "oil restrictor" is in fact a FILTER.
if you look at the SIZEs of the restrictor VS the hole in the bearing, the oil feed hole in the bearing is actually the restriction....so why?
The problem with using a tiny hole in the bearing..... is that......one spec of dirt, gunk......SO, they put a "stick in a hole" type restrictor just upstream to stop any particles just the right size to ruin it. Very clever.
BUt, even that will eventually plug up. Needs to be cleaned out every 30 years Wink
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Ha! So what about us VW newbies that decide to pull all the plugs to clean it out properly and then Realize “hey maybe I shouldn’t have touched that plug”?
I have it tapped and a plug but haven’t done anything yet. It is an odd type of plug though. So why “filter” that one channel instead of the others? Is that the first in the oil flow direction therefore it would get caught BEFORE going through the system?
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

I had a case where it was all plugged up with oxidation, so I pulled it.

Not worried.
With modern oil, full flow GOOD quality filter, and not putting 1/4" beads silicone sealant on everything there won't be any problem.

Funny thing is it took me YEARS to realize Laughing That's what it was. I thought maybe in the OLD days the bearing didn't have a small hole, so I've been looking OUt for a old bearing wit a big hole for years....but there aren't any.
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nsracing
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:27 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

we have been thru this before on the #4 restrictor. the #4 only has to feed the single bearing. why do you think the restrictor was more upstream? Maybe the Germans knew something...

if u pull that restrictor will probably flood the #4 bearing and spew oil behind the pulley. Laughing

try it out and let us know.
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

I’ve read MANY threads on this. Both theories certainly make sense to me.
And I also read where people have just plugged it and after 10,000 miles it started flinging oil from behind the pulley.
I don’t want this problem. I can’t remember which thread but he machined a plug with a “hex” head that stuck out on the outside and a barrel welded on the other side to mimick the original design. I’ll have to find the pic.
The “filter” idea makes sense to me! But also the restriction idea too.
Confused. Ugh.
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modok
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

67 Sunroof wrote:

Some people xxxxxxx and after 10,000 miles it started flinging oil from behind the pulley.

Replace the XX with whatever, and it's just as true.
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Biggest question not yet asked, which I think of every time I see the thread title, is:

What the hell is a "sunroof engine"?

I've seen "windows" in valve covers, but never a "sunroof" in a case.

Inquiring minds want to know.
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
Biggest question not yet asked, which I think of every time I see the thread title, is:

What the hell is a "sunroof engine"?

I've seen "windows" in valve covers, but never a "sunroof" in a case.

Inquiring minds want to know.


Really? I thought you were smarter than that. What’s a “KTPhil”?
Very Happy
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Ok so I am back at the motor build after finishing up my Ruckus scooter...
Today I decided to put the oil relief plugs in and make sure they were opening and closing smoothly. They bound up a bit where I drilled/tapped the case for screw in plugs. What do you guys do after you tap the holes for the plugs? How do you deburr the holes so the relief valve plugs move up and down smoothly?
Also, on the shorter spring....I have 2 short springs and one is a few millimeters longer than the other? In my Bentley it lists the long spring length but not the small ones length. What should the length be?

AND:

I tapped the plug that has the restrictor plug/filter. After reading many articles I feel that [email protected] is correct saying that I should tap the hole below the bearing and drill a hole in and make it a “restrictor plugged” hole.
What size hole should I make it to help limit the amount of oil going to the #4 bearing. Picture of what I am talking about below:
Ideas?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Wow. Great build, and read..

I like Modok’s theory about the restrictor plug.
Makes good sense - the little piece of swarf would hit that plug in one spot,
Then there would still be flow around the plug in other areas.
Instead of plugging up the feed hole to #1 bearing..

In our motors, with the removed restrictor, we will have some risk.
A piece of trash up there -might- just plug the feed hole.

Here’s where my experience comes into play,
Having done this mod, and been just fine, and with no sand-seal.

The only reason, IMHO, that people have had leak issues after this mod is for other reasons.
Other reasons that either cause more crank-case pressure,
Or restrict venting..

Invariably, the guy who plugs his galley also has poor cylinder prep, or washes down the cylinders with fuel or turns way more RPM or has increased displacement or...
That same guy will also use one of those tiny custom aluminum oil fillers; the one with the breather vent hole WAY too small.

So,
Leaks at the pulley are blamed on the restrictor plug,
When that’s not the real reason.
If the motor is oil tight, the pulley is going to leak, because it’s really the best place where pressure can freely escape.
Anything causing pressure will cause the case vent there..

People’s analysis will be dead wrong; more than one thing changed.


FWIW,
I have a case with the restrictor tapped/plugged,
And it doesn’t leak.


Interestingly, the type 4 uses the same restrictor,
So they must have felt the design a success.


Also,
I like to port case windows on any motor.
Ported -and- polished and matched..
Look at where the volume me of air/oil under the pistons has to go/move during the operation of the motor.
How could it possibly not help if the flow between adjacent cylinders is eased?
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Did John specify what size hole?

Is it a different size than the feed hole in #4?
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Thanks for your replies. I stopped getting traffic and wasn’t getting answers to some of my questions so I figured you guys gave up on me...
Except NS and Modok. Hahaha!
John mentioned in a post to measure the restrictor plug and do some math to come up with the area volume and then tap the #4 journal and drill a small hole in the tap that would equal the same area of the restrictor plug.
Good idea!
BUT,
I think without the restrictor/filter and a full flow GOOD filter, and proper case prep and cleaning I will be fine.
I’m not quite sure it is a restrictor. The stock “filter” if you want to call it is hardly a filter. Any trash that makes its way past that would get caught in the restrictor/filter plug before being fed to the main bearings is my theory.
So here are some more pictures to go along with my questions. Modok has already answered the spring length question but this is what I was talking about:
I have 2 sets of oe springs, plungers, screws, etc. the one small spring is slightly shorter than the other and I wanted to know which what was supposed to be the proper size.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The cam bearings. I went to lay them in their journals but quickly realized there were 2 different sizes?? I checked in the Bentley, and the Wilson book and could not come up with an answer on placement on the bearings. Do the wider ones go on the end journal or the middle journal?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And can you elaborate on the windows? Mine is only a 1776. I’ve opened them slightly and de-burred the case as much as I could.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Here’s one I did a while back that shows some case prep.
FWIW..
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=692654&highlight=beater
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Wider ones in middle
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

I hate to ask suck elementary questions but you have to start somewhere right?
Thank you
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Here’s one I did a while back that shows some case prep.
FWIW..
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=692654&highlight=beater


Your build is awesome. I’m reading through it now and have already learned a few things...like the empi aluminum plugs. I did the same thing. I tapped the hole and “test fitted” the aluminum plug. Guess what? The bitch stripped taking it out. Had to drill it out and took forever. Never again.
Bought steel ones.
Also, the comment about the restrictor plug that Jim told you about. What will happen if you DON’T install it and only use a plug??
I especially like your statements like “it sucks big black donkey balls”
The humor is great.
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