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'59 Karmann Ghia fever
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

Trylon wrote:
djkeev wrote:
Not puzzling, you were just looking at the wrong page! Laughing

Flip back one page........

Dave


That would have been great, unfortunately it seems the only fuel pump that I can find information on is the one for the 40hp. Perhaps my edition is abridged? Hard to believe that that tome could have been thicker.


A curious thing about the Bentley's is that they build upon each other. The newer versions often assume you already know all about the older versions so they will omit some older information that you should already know if it still applies.

To be fully knowledgeable you should have and have read and understood the previous volumes

Dave.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Trylon wrote:
djkeev wrote:
Not puzzling, you were just looking at the wrong page! Laughing

Flip back one page........

Dave


That would have been great, unfortunately it seems the only fuel pump that I can find information on is the one for the 40hp. Perhaps my edition is abridged? Hard to believe that that tome could have been thicker.


A curious thing about the Bentley's is that they build upon each other. The newer versions often assume you already know all about the older versions so they will omit some older information that you should already know if it still applies.

To be fully knowledgeable you should have and have read and understood the previous volumes

Dave.


Would I have had better luck with this?
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/volkswagen/repair...anual.html
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

Oh NO!
That is well beyond your design year!
The vehicles share some common parts but are overall way different!

Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Oh NO!
That is well beyond your design year!
The vehicles share some common parts but are overall way different!

Dave


Ok, let’s try this one:
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/volkswagen/repair...anual.html
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

Sure, a lot of that book will apply to your vehicle, but you really don't NEED it. You might find it interesting though......

It will cover the earlier models and some procedures it covers will probably NOT be found in the 58-60 manual.

The 61-65 Type I has a huge section on body repair that is not repeated..... ever.

Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Sure, a lot of that book will apply to your vehicle, but you really don't NEED it. You might find it interesting though......

It will cover the earlier models and some procedures it covers will probably NOT be found in the 58-60 manual.

The 61-65 Type I has a huge section on body repair that is not repeated..... ever.

Dave


One last question for the night— where the heck are all the torque values everyone tells me to look up?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

Torque..... A crude way of measuring fastener stretch.

Fasteners are elastic and in tension. As you tighten them you are stretching the steel, not unlike pulling on a rubber band.

The tighter you make it, the more the fastener stretches thus squeezing the items ever tighter together.

But like a rubber band, too much tension causes the item clamped to misform out of shape or the fastener to physically break.

Torque,
Bolt stretch measurement,
Torque angle
Special torque washers

All measure fastener stretch. To measure stretch exactly is a difficult and expensive process that doesn't translate well outside of a lab.
By measuring resistance to rotation, stretch is reliably approximated..... though all sorts of variables enter in. Oiled threads, temperature and fastener reuse are a few.

A very complex topic indeed!
Let's throw in bolt/nut grade and fastener composition just to further complicate the topic!

Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Torque..... A crude way of measuring fastener stretch.

Fasteners are elastic and in tension. As you tighten them you are stretching the steel, not unlike pulling on a rubber band.

The tighter you make it, the more the fastener stretches thus squeezing the items ever tighter together.

But like a rubber band, too much tension causes the item clamped to misform out of shape or the fastener to physically break.

Torque,
Bolt stretch measurement,
Torque angle
Special torque washers

All measure fastener stretch. To measure stretch exactly is a difficult and expensive process that doesn't translate well outside of a lab.
By measure resistance to rotation, stretch is reliably approximated..... though all sorts of variables enter in. Oiled threads, temperature and fastener reuse are a few.

A very complex topic indeed!

Dave


Guess I didn’t make myself clear— there seems to be a bible somewhere that contains torque values for each fastener on the vehicle. Sounds like something I should spring for.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

Without Guesswork

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/withoutguesswork.php

But this is all in your Bentley......
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Without Guesswork

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/withoutguesswork.php


The Mother Lode!

Our Karmann Ghia thanks you!

You know— you are a treasure. Tell your wife that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Way back when, in the days before time took its toll upon my body, in the late 60's..........
I got my first VW, a 1960 sunroof Beetle.
I needed a repair manual, Bentleys weren't readily available. I think I got this from JC Whitney?
My very first VW book!

Maybe it will help you.......

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

...
Dave

The last sentence in the General Description paragraph states ...

Quote:
It is suggested that a new diaphragm be fitted each 25,000 miles.


From the perspective of someone who has grown up with more modern cars that require very little maintenance in comparison, it's always surprising to me when I'm reminded of just how frequently various different parts of a vintage Volkswagen (or, I suppose, any other 40+ year old car) require lubrication, adjustment, or replacement.

... and even if you do follow the suggested maintenance routine faithfully, the old air-cooled flat four only had an average life expectancy of some 60,000 miles BITD.

Thank Goodness for modern chemistry and the improvements made in lubrication and materials technologies.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
A new lesson in VW for you!

And this one may get me crucified by the faithful........ but........

Robert Bentley makes mistakes!

Here is my 52-57 Type I ..... notice the dimensions are proper?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Have fun!

Dave


Had some stuff to do today.
Finally got to measure the rod lengths. Got 26mm to 31mm. It is supposed to be 29 to 34. I can imagine gaining some length when the bolts are torqued down— I just held everything up tight for the moment— but 3mm?


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Seems odd given that the rod is longer than it is supposed to be in the first place. And how is it even driving the pump at those lengths? I thought for sure that the extra gasket was a dead giveaway that the rod was too long. Could something have happened internally when the engine was refreshed that could cause this anomaly?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

Carefully removing the fuel pump base and taking one of those TWO gaskets out that are between the base and the engine case should gain you another millimeter. Embarassed
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

KGCoupe wrote:
djkeev wrote:
Way back when, in the days before time took its toll upon my body, in the late 60's..........
I got my first VW, a 1960 sunroof Beetle.
I needed a repair manual, Bentleys weren't readily available. I think I got this from JC Whitney?
My very first VW book!

Maybe it will help you.......

[img]https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1989422.jpg[/img

[img]https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1989421.jpg[/img
...
Dave

The last sentence in the General Description paragraph states ...

Quote:
It is suggested that a new diaphragm be fitted each 25,000 miles.


From the perspective of someone who has grown up with more modern cars that require very little maintenance in comparison, it's always surprising to me when I'm reminded of just how frequently various different parts of a vintage Volkswagen (or, I suppose, any other 40+ year old car) require lubrication, adjustment, or replacement.

... and even if you do follow the suggested maintenance routine faithfully, the old air-cooled flat four only had an average life expectancy of some 60,000 miles BITD.

Thank Goodness for modern chemistry and the improvements made in lubrication and materials technologies.


Yeah, people don't realize how much BETTER modern car technology is today than days gone by.

My Dad bought a 55 Chevy Station Wagon BRAND NEW!
We traveled in that old Chevy until 1963. You never saw a happier man than my Dad was when the odometer rolled over 100,000 miles WITHOUT engine work!
That was an almost unheard of accomplishment!

He all but threw a party to celebrate!

My Grandfather carried the tools and supplies to pour new bearings if the need arose while traveling. He traveled extensively in the early 1900's before highways were a refined network. Back then you often purchased gasoline in tin cans at drug stores!
I remember him telling about the time he hacked off a chunk of his leather belt to make a bearing once.
They were different times back then.

Dave
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Last edited by djkeev on Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:20 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

Rome wrote:
Carefully removing the fuel pump base and taking one of those TWO gaskets out that are between the base and the engine case should gain you another millimeter. Embarassed


If you can't get the dimension, remove the bakelite pushrod guide and ckean it well.

Get a sheet of glass and some fine sandpaper. (Glass is almost always a known flat surface)
Place the sandpaper on the glass and gently EVENLY sand away the surface where the fuel pump mounts.

Taking a dimension with calipers before you start removing material will help you determine how much to remove without constantly reinstalling it to measure.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

Just to confirm things, are these the measurements of your fuel pump rod and base?

Fuel pump rod length - 104mm

Fuel pump base thickness - 23 mm
23mm is just the visible part you see here:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Your base doesn't look modified but worth checking anyway
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
Just to confirm things, are these the measurements of your fuel pump rod and base?

Fuel pump rod length - 104mm

Fuel pump base thickness - 23 mm
23mm is just the visible part you see here:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Your base doesn't look modified but worth checking anyway


Yes, I will measure it more closely tomorrow but I think the rod is ~104mm. Will also measure base thickness as well.

I thought the rod was supposed to be 100mm. If so, this one is ~4mm too long. This would lead one to believe that it would have a range of 33 to 37 (4mm longer) but instead it has a range of 26 to 34 (~3mm shorter). And the engine seemed to run fine with it.

I’m getting confused.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Rome wrote:
Carefully removing the fuel pump base and taking one of those TWO gaskets out that are between the base and the engine case should gain you another millimeter. Embarassed


If you can't get the dimension, remove the bakelite pushrod guide and ckean it well.

Get a sheet of glass and some fine sandpaper. (Glass is almost always a known flat surface)
Place the sandpaper on the glass and gently EVENLY sand away the surface where the fuel pump mounts.

Taking a dimension with calipers before you start removing material will help you determine how much to remove without constantly reinstalling it to measure.


Well, I could always get the longer rod. But that seems odd— like I am succumbing to an “Oh well” moment.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

There is only one rod for a 36hp, it looks nothing like the later 40 or 1500/1600 rods.
From the pictures you have the right rod, they stick out far, it's what they do.
Your pump was leaking because the diaphragm was likely dried out from sitting in RTs garage for who knows how many years.
One thing about these cars is that it is very, very easy to overthink things.
Put your new one on, hook it up and see if it runs.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: '59 Karmann Ghia fever Reply with quote

Braukuche wrote:
One thing about these cars is that it is very, very easy to overthink things.
Put your new one on, hook it up and see if it runs.


THIS. Quoted for emphasis.
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