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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32987
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:08 am Post subject: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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I've got a 2000 JCB backhoe with the four cylinder Perkins Diesel engine.
I've had it for 15 years, it has been a dependable work horse.
Last week I was using it and it died, like you turned off the key.
Odd......
it has fuel
It cranks over strong
OK, old diesels are tough birds!
Just the basics.....
Compression and fuel...... they run,
Fuel flow schematic is
Tank to
Water Separator to
In line filter (added, not OEM) to
Fuel pump (mechanical with prime lever) to
Spin on fuel filter to
Injection pump to
Injectors.
My water separator is a clear plastic with a ferrous steel stud embedded in it.
Ferrous steel..... water ..... it rusts, I keep an extra one on hand. That stud will rust through and fall off.
It was full of rusty ugly gunk.
I have a fuel tank rust issue so this wasn't unexpected, I spun on a new plastic housing.
Additionally I've installed an in line fuel filter after the water separator but before the fuel pump to catch any rust particles that make it through the separator on the way to the fuel pump. I replaced it with a new filter. It clogs frequently.
A few cranks of the engine and the bowl fills with fuel. GREAT!
The fuel pump works! It Pulls fuel from the tank.
No start.
Crap!
Ok.... air filter clogged?
I remove it.
No start.
Ok..... OEM fuel filter before the injector pump clogged?
I get the new one, prefill it .... 90% or so, don't want to spill it all over, and I spin it on.
Cranks.
No start.
Crap!
A teeny tiny shot of starting fluid.... fires right up.....stalls.
I know, I know...... don't use ether on a diesel.......
Ok, confirmed, no fuel.
I unspun the new fuel filter.
Still only 90% full.
With the engine cranking and with the short burst of ignition, it should be full.
Now I'm looking at a fuel pump.
No fuel leaks anywhere.
the injector pump shut off solenoid is activated with key on.
Is is possible for a mechanical pump to suck fuel from the tank but not push it to the injection pump?
I'm looking at a fuel pump?
Or
A shut off solenoid?
A bad solenoid would prevent the OEM filter from filling?
Writing this it occurs to me that I should probably loosen the exit pipe fitting on the filter housing and see if it spurts fuel while cranking .....
Any encouraging words? Solutions? Injector pump?
I'm not a diesel guy..... I stumble through but ..... I honestly hate it. Dirty smelly .......
Dave
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Nitramrebrab72
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Joined: November 10, 2018
Posts: 1028
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:24 am Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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Cut off solenoid only stops fuel in high pressure fuel injector pump. Get a fresh jerry can of diesel and run it from there make sure your hoses aren't blocked then once you are sure all fuel lines are free of blockages you will need to fully bleed the low pressure circuit at its highest point, it will probably have an allocated bleed screw/nipple, and then at the closet point to the (high pressure) fuel injecteur pump.
If this does not work then you will have to bleed the high pressure circuit, but only once the low pressure circuit is fully bled, you do this while the engine is cranking with a bit of throttle by cracking open one by one a half turn on top of each injector (feed line) until diesel come out then lock it back down. Ps make sure you break the seal between the injector and pipe . Be careful of any moving parts it might also start up on first injector bleed. |
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busdaddy
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Posts: 53254
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:04 am Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| it died, like you turned off the key. |
Cutoff solenoid would be my first suspicion, or the power supply to it, does it click when someone turns on the key? (they are quiet, listen carefully).
If it was a feed problem it would surge and slowly crap out like they do when you run the tank dry.
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32987
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Nitramrebrab72
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Joined: November 10, 2018
Posts: 1028
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:28 am Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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| Simpler still remove the return diesel line into an empty container it should come out a fairly strong flow a 4 liter engine would through out between 60 and 120 litres/hr (nothing to do with fuel consumption) so 1 to 2 litres /min and less then half that at cranking speed. If you are getting nothing or a dribble then the problem is with the low pressure circuit, if its coming out strong then it's the high pressure circuit. Be careful not to turn over the engine too long on the stater if you have a dry pump and you insist to long you can kill the high pressure pump, score it or seize parts inside rendering it scrap well almost. |
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nsracing
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Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9758
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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Maybe the injectors are all gunked up. sticky? Clean out the fuel lines and distribution center.
YOu have pressure to the injectors? |
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djkeev
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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nsracing
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Joined: November 16, 2003
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Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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Assumption is the mother of all screw ups, Dj. 
Check anyway. I stayed inside few days too. But tomorrow is too good a day to waste being inside. Maybe I will fire up the yard tractor. Grass is growing pretty good. Weedwack. Load ammo.
Stay well, all. |
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Abscate
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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I’ll bet it’s a KISS PROBLEM. air in fuel lines
On marine diesels this is a total pain to bleed out.
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djkeev
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Abscate
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:32 am Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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Ugh. If it didn’t sit too long, the pump should be ok. Now to get the fuel out.
You can get a good fuel separator and run the whole tank out into another container.
Here is an EPA waiver to use an orange gas can for temporary diesel fuel storage
<< insert EPA-NJ-fuelcanwaiver.pdf>>
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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Drained the water from the fuel tank,
Emptied the water separator,
Replaced fuel filters,
Blew out the fuel lines,
Primed,
Started right up!
Ran for 10 minutes and died, out of fuel.
No fuel being pumped.
Tried priming (hand lever on fuel pump) no good.
It is a Mechanical fuel pump, British, supply source broken right now.
I Am going to wire in a low pressure electric pump for now. I see no harm in doing this.
Odd that fuel pump pukes after a water in fuel event......
Dave
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Abscate
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:55 am Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Drained the water from the fuel tank,
Emptied the water separator,
Replaced fuel filters,
Blew out the fuel lines,
Primed,
Started right up!
Ran for 10 minutes and died, out of fuel.
No fuel being pumped.
Tried priming (hand lever on fuel pump) no good.
It is a Mechanical fuel pump, British, supply source broken right now.
I Am going to wire in a low pressure electric pump for now. I see no harm in doing this.
Odd that fuel pump pukes after a water in fuel event......
Dave |
I got peeps in Britain if you need parts.
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:45 am Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| djkeev wrote: |
Drained the water from the fuel tank,
Emptied the water separator,
Replaced fuel filters,
Blew out the fuel lines,
Primed,
Started right up!
Ran for 10 minutes and died, out of fuel.
No fuel being pumped.
Tried priming (hand lever on fuel pump) no good.
It is a Mechanical fuel pump, British, supply source broken right now.
I Am going to wire in a low pressure electric pump for now. I see no harm in doing this.
Odd that fuel pump pukes after a water in fuel event......
Dave |
I got peeps in Britain if you need parts. |
Appreciate the offer.
The US supply chain is in place, just badly fragmented right now. They are usually quick and responsive.
Honestly, if the electric pump works, I may just run it.
The mechanical fuel pump location was apparently designed as a hellish place to get to.
Dave
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Abscate
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:59 am Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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Perkins Diesels are ubiquitous in marine applications - maybe a marine shop has parts ? They tend to be pricey but in stock - boat people have more money than time, unlike VW people.
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mark tucker
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Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:01 am Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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| it takes a good bit to get the h2o out of the system. you need to fix the issue with the h2o getting in and the afu tank.( plastic tank for something else would be my fix). you can perge as much out as possiable then there is air... thats hard to perge past. some times you need to add pressure to the inlet side of the pump.... so it's not just cavatating. hopefult the h20 hasent effed up any thing as it will do if left in there. it may be a good idea to invest in more raycor filters too add another one after that one. then use up the case of eather running it to get fuel to the injectors, if they have bleeders that would help too as you could also add a vacume to the bleeders to help pull the h2o out. no Im not a diesel exspurt, but out humoungus taylor forklift for pulling 48' pussy boats out of the h2o...it was deisel...and...was bought new and...head a few h20 issues..(3 that I remember) pain in the ass when it happens as you only use it when you need it...40 times a day...I miss that fork lift it was a blast. and fast too!!! |
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djkeev
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Posts: 32987
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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Electric pump was delivered by my FLAPS this morning.
As with any good VW modification I installed it to be a 100% reversible modification.
The stock fuel pump and it's hoses are still in place.
A cut here, a snip here, a length of 5/16” fuel hose and it's all plumbed in.
Open the fuse panel cover, find an unused fuse holder that is energized with the key both on and start. Tap in and run a +wire to the pump. Ran a ground wire to the chassis and turn the key on....... BUZZ......... I've got fuel!
I left the fuel filter off and fuel poured out of the housing.
Screwed the fuel filter on after prefilling it..... crank crank crank...... zoom!
Off it roared!
I like the electric pump priming system, I may just keep the electric fuel pump if it proves itself over the next couple of weeks.
The electric pump is generic off the shelf technology.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions!
I just can't figure out why the mechanical pump gave up ten minutes after fixing the water in fuel Issue?
I still need to locate the hole in the fuel fill pipe but I can now do this elsewhere rather than a muddy work site!
Dave
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nsracing
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: JCB backhoe, won't start |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Somehow, the machine got a gulp of water into the fuel tank.
This is fun! 
Dave |
When my tractors refuse to start, I always dump the tank and see all the water in there. Clean out the carb bowls and away they go. |
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