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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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 Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| i never thought when i wanted to build a mpg motor that people would be interested in building a mpg motor . being every one wants duel port heads dual carbs and big stroker motors .lol that was a shock to me this has been fun to do we will have to see what happens when i get it into a vw bug . a lot of great info on this forum . thank every one spencerfvee |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| i never thought when i wanted to build a mpg motor that people would be interested in building a mpg motor . being every one wants duel port heads dual carbs and big stroker motors .lol that was a shock to me this has been fun to do we will have to see what happens when i get it into a vw bug . a lot of great info on this forum . thank every one spencerfvee |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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See, I love discussions like this, because it makes you look at more details that usually don't get thought of. It's so easy to just slap together a "known" combo and take what you get- even if you go about it methodically you aren't getting that last little bit. Looking at the usually taken for granted details can add up to lots of incremental improvements.
Hell, my 1776 with Kadrons does a consistent 29-30 MPG, I wonder how much it could be improved with some MPG related internal modifications next time around? I already expect a little improvement when I finally go IDF's on it.
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7222
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
Hell, my 1776 with Kadrons does a consistent 29-30 MPG, I wonder how much it could be improved with some MPG related internal modifications next time around? I already expect a little improvement when I finally go IDF's on it. |
You will get better results just getting the ignition, timing and jetting right. Kadrons can deliver very good fuel efficiency.
If you really wanted to chase fuel efficiency with duals, you should go source a set of Alfa 36 Idf´s, - or Dells. The generic IDF´s are inferior on that account, - but, can be made to do it, it takes a good deal of work though.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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update i just read hot vws mpg motor build . they talked about light weight lifters light weight rods and using straight cut gears on the inside of the case . i was taken back by hot vws using a bosch 009 .i thought they would have used a 205 dizy that has vac. so i found a bosch made in germany dizy i set it up to have 10 degs intal. all in by 32 degs total i used all bosch parts on the rebuild . i all so bought a new set of straight cut gears that has a alum . cam gear . i have used these gears on 8 buggy motors and they worked just fine (if a buggy guy cant break some thing then one knows it will hold up lol) i am using these gears because the cam gear alum. ok i all so bought a pict34 carb sold by pacific . works fine .some guys will be upset its made in china . i did not want to spend the $350.00 for a new Bocar carb when i am going to later on run dual carbs . i have a set of nos 1979 kadron dual carbs . thats what the news paper packaging said that the kadrons came in . i was going to keep them for a vintage motor build . all i have to do is find a set of sp intake manifolds . i think theres set at the shop spencerfvee
Last edited by spencerfvee on Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12745
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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Getting the most possible HP at the highest possible RPM is a very narrow but well travelled road. A focus on MPG and drivability opens up a whole new world that the auto manufacturers are very good at. They are a tough act to follow these days!
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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Best mileage I ever got was with 40 idf's ,,mild built 1641cc , best mpg was 50 in my 917 laser 
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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Pruneman99
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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Spencer, if your goal is 30mpg that's a pretty easy target.
My engine is a totally stock 1600 dual port. No thermostat, not well balanced either. PICT 34 stock weight flywheel, SVDA, etc. The only thing I'm doing "different" is running a dual hear riser intake manifold and exhaust from a California 1974 bug with the emissions deleted.
I got 28-30 mpg driving over a mountain, through a desert, and over another mountain with an insane headwind. |
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VdanielW
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: indio, ca
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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I built a 2276 looking for both good fuel economy and plenty of power. My goal was to match my wife's 2.3L ecoboost mustang. We would see 23mpg around town and about 33mpg freeway. I was able to reach right around 22mpg town and 31mpg freeway before I went back to turbo (best so far with an edelbrock on the turbo set up was 29.9mpg freeway).
94x82, 8.6:1 compression
w120 cam w/1.25 rockers
65cc cb044's ported by Aj Sims with 40x35 valves and dual springs
1 5/8" merged header, summitracing stainless muffler w/o2 bung for afr gauge
44idf copies made by decade with 34 venturi- jetting tuned for 14.7-15.2afr on progression, 12.8afr under power and wide open throttle.
010 distributor set at 12deg idle 28deg full in.
It ran great had great pull from 1800-6500rpm.
Trans gearing was a .89 4th with 3.88 r/p and 195/65/r15 rear tires. |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Pruneman99 wrote: |
Spencer, if your goal is 30mpg that's a pretty easy target.
My engine is a totally stock 1600 dual port. No thermostat, not well balanced either. PICT 34 stock weight flywheel, SVDA, etc. The only thing I'm doing "different" is running a dual hear riser intake manifold and exhaust from a California 1974 bug with the emissions deleted.
I got 28-30 mpg driving over a mountain, through a desert, and over another mountain with an insane headwind. |
...................................................................................................................yea i know . i set my gol low when i was told 40mpg would not happen my real goal is 34 mpg what gets me to thinking .is why did my brand new $2,000.00 1970 bug get 34 mpg driving 55mph on the free way the distributor was a all vac. distributor 1600 single port motor with a pict 30 carb why does no one think that a all vac. distributor now a days cant get 34 mpg and stock muffler lol when i am trying to do all i can to get 34 to 40 mpg out of a motor lo lol take care spencerfvee |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| VdanielW wrote: |
I built a 2276 looking for both good fuel economy and plenty of power. My goal was to match my wife's 2.3L ecoboost mustang. We would see 23mpg around town and about 33mpg freeway. I was able to reach right around 22mpg town and 31mpg freeway before I went back to turbo (best so far with an edelbrock on the turbo set up was 29.9mpg freeway).
94x82, 8.6:1 compression
w120 cam w/1.25 rockers
65cc cb044's ported by Aj Sims with 40x35 valves and dual springs
1 5/8" merged header, summitracing stainless muffler w/o2 bung for afr gauge
44idf copies made by decade with 34 venturi- jetting tuned for 14.7-15.2afr on progression, 12.8afr under power and wide open throttle.
010 distributor set at 12deg idle 28deg full in.
It ran great had great pull from 1800-6500rpm.
Trans gearing was a .89 4th with 3.88 r/p and 195/65/r15 rear tires. |
..........................................................................................................................thats great mpg for a big motor hats off to you. i think you hit the right combo on that build spencerfvee |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| madmike wrote: |
| Best mileage I ever got was with 40 idf's ,,mild built 1641cc , best mpg was 50 in my 917 laser |
..............................................................  ......................................................holy bat shit 50 mpg is that why they call you mad mike ???? lol spencerfvee |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1218
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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Something to consider when measuring “MPG” is the diameter of the front wheels , using 135r15’s will work out a lot different to 165r15s . So check your Speedo accuracy to get accurate figures .
I want to build a “MPG” motor from a core ACD Mexican engine . They have bus hydraulic lifters , my plan is to sleeve the lifter bores and use modified Chev LS roller hydraulics with a very mild cam ([email protected]”) . Beehive springs etc .The aim is reduced friction and more valve open time.
88mm machine in cylinders , not sure on crank , depends on the crank in the core . maybe a small stroker with chev journals . Friends spin balanced stock German cranks in their formula Vees over 5500 with no real issues ,the races last up to 20minutes and the engines are at WOT all the time , most of their engines go for quite a few seasons and are only pulled down because of power loss from rings or valves etc .
How does the size of the journal affect drag . Is a chev /Buick size rod journal better than a 55mm type 1 journal , smaller journal , less weight and bearing area etc ? |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Wreck wrote: |
Something to consider when measuring “MPG” is the diameter of the front wheels , using 135r15’s will work out a lot different to 165r15s . So check your Speedo accuracy to get accurate figures .
I want to build a “MPG” motor from a core ACD Mexican engine . They have bus hydraulic lifters , my plan is to sleeve the lifter bores and use modified Chev LS roller hydraulics with a very mild cam ([email protected]”) . Beehive springs etc .The aim is reduced friction and more valve open time.
88mm machine in cylinders , not sure on crank , depends on the crank in the core . maybe a small stroker with chev journals . Friends spin balanced stock German cranks in their formula Vees over 5500 with no real issues ,the races last up to 20minutes and the engines are at WOT all the time , most of their engines go for quite a few seasons and are only pulled down because of power loss from rings or valves etc .
How does the size of the journal affect drag . Is a chev /Buick size rod journal better than a 55mm type 1 journal , smaller journal , less weight and bearing area etc ? |
............................................................................................................................................i just lerned some thing new about acd mexican cases . sounds like you know what your doing . i hope you post your build on samba forms. i would like to see how you build it . spencerfvee |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:51 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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yep totally 'Mad'  what helps get 50 mpg was the car was slitely 'aerodynamic' also on my turbo bug I get 26-28 mpg too, could probably get over 30 if I didn't "Boost" and removed the roof rack
Cheers,Mike
P.S that's my friend Travis P. he was in town for "Sno Drift Rally"
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:33 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| madmike wrote: |
yep totally 'Mad' what helps get 50 mpg was the car was slitely 'aerodynamic' also on my turbo bug I get 26-28 mpg too, could probably get over 30 if I didn't "Boost" and removed the roof rack
Cheers,Mike
P.S that's my friend Travis P. he was in town for "Sno Drift Rally" |
............................................................................................................................nice ride .you dont see these cars a lot . at shows any more . i have seen these cars at shows there very low to the ground very light . 50mpg is mind blowing. . it makes me wonder what a pipe buggy would get for mpg or a glass dune buggy . or a cheap brad lee kit car . take care thanks for posting a photo of your car spencerfvee |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:40 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Wreck wrote: |
Something to consider when measuring “MPG” is the diameter of the front wheels , using 135r15’s will work out a lot different to 165r15s . So check your Speedo accuracy to get accurate figures .
I want to build a “MPG” motor from a core ACD Mexican engine . They have bus hydraulic lifters , my plan is to sleeve the lifter bores and use modified Chev LS roller hydraulics with a very mild cam ([email protected]”) . Beehive springs etc .The aim is reduced friction and more valve open time.
88mm machine in cylinders , not sure on crank , depends on the crank in the core . maybe a small stroker with chev journals . Friends spin balanced stock German cranks in their formula Vees over 5500 with no real issues ,the races last up to 20minutes and the engines are at WOT all the time , most of their engines go for quite a few seasons and are only pulled down because of power loss from rings or valves etc .
How does the size of the journal affect drag . Is a chev /Buick size rod journal better than a 55mm type 1 journal , smaller journal , less weight and bearing area etc ? |
............................................................................................................................ thanks for the info and your right on about how to balancing a 40hp crank its hard to find some one in a shop that will take the time to balance a crank dead on 0..i miss my formula vee i did find it a good home for my old school vanguard bobsy vee he will be racing it soon at mid ohio track spencerfvee..
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KEGZ
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2021
Posts: 288
Location: Whales Vagina
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:49 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| I keep seeing those things for sale around here.. the open wheeled FV cars from the 70s. |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:12 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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I always thought a kit car with a fiberglass body would be a killer basis for a MPG miser build- I've always had a soft spot for Sterling and Bradley GTs, and a nice little 1600-1700cc engine with a killer tune would probably be a great way to go.
Maybe a thickwall 88 based build, 36IDFs or Dells, detailed stock valve heads, CB black box for ignition tuning, long intake manifolds, hideaway header brought out to a nice quad pipe exhaust like on a newer corvette, super mild cam with short duration but moderate lift and soft ramps. Should run nice and cool while giving a smidge more power, without sacrificing much potential MPG from going up in bore a bit.
I only mention 88's because if reusing a stock engine case it doesn't cost much to have the case cut when you send it in for work, and then you can deck the case at the same time. Hell, in such a build in a light kit car a 1641 might not have any issues either. But a 1600 wouldn't be a slouch either.
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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