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islandwesty
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Joined: April 22, 2005
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Location: Pullman, WA
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 Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: camshaft part numbers help needed |
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Greetings. 
I am rebuildng my 2.0 AC Vanagon block, but I think I may get more luck for an answer posting here. Yes, I have been perusing the search function for a while on this one...
The stock camshaft part number (hydro) is 021 109 111C. This is the cam that I have removed from 3 Vanagon donors. (The part number when shopping for a new cam is 071 109 021. These are the aftermarket Dial-In cams, as 021109111C is NLA, and all vendor part number searches for 021109111C are dry. Vanagain.com even has a photo of 021109111C for part number 071109021. Hmmmm.....). However, I was able to procure a NOS 021 109 111C!  Yay! BUT, vendor indicated this is a cam "originally for 74 Bus but should be suitable for 72-77", which has me worried this is a solid lifer cam. So, my question is, when is a part number not a part number? Is there such thing as a 02110911C for hydro lifters and a 021190111C for solid lifters? If so, how to tell the diff?
Part number gurus, before I found the 021 109 111C, I bought a re-ground 021 109 111B. What's the difference between 111C and 111B? Is 111B a paperweight? I was told this is a suitable cam for hydro Vanagon, but I wonder...... 
Thanks! Almost ready for re-assembly....
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old DKP driver
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Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:44 pm Post subject: Camshaft |
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You may have to call some dealers, but the C camshaft is for a 78-79 hyd. with manual transmission. automatic transmission vans are different as are camshafts for carbed vans.i would suggest only installing new or reground with lifters from same.caus you do not want to tear it down because the lifters were harder than the cam surface.this can happen. good luck.
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germansupplyscott
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:07 am Post subject: |
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where are you finding those numbers? those are not camshaft numbers, they are the part number for the CAM GEAR. the camshaft for a CV engine is 071 109 015, 017, 019, 021, 023, 025, depending on the cam gear pitch. all aircooled vanagon cams use the 021 109 111C cam gear afaik.
part number for camshafts are really confusing because they do not appear on the cam anywhere, owing to the fact that the camshaft part number is for the cam & gear together, and the part number changes with the grind of the cam gear.
if vendors are using 021 109 111C for the cam part number they are either too lazy to figure it out properly or clueless.
if you post or send me detailed pictures of the NOS cam you have i can tell you if it is a solid cam of hydraulic. you can't tell by looking at the part number on the gear!
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Last edited by germansupplyscott on Tue May 30, 2006 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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islandwesty
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Joined: April 22, 2005
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Location: Pullman, WA
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| germansupplyscott wrote: |
| if you post or send me detailed pictures of the NOS cam you have i can tell you if it is a solid cam of hydraulic. you can't tell by looking at the part number on the gear! |
Kind sir, from what angle(s) would you like the photographer to aim the lense and shutter? Thanks!
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germansupplyscott
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Amskeptic
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germansupplyscott
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: |
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you know, stupid me i did not measure that cam before i shipped it to you. it would have been smart for me to do so. i have one NOS hydraulic cam on the shelf, i will measure it this week and add the results to the linked page above.
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islandwesty
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Low budget digi-cam... this is the best I could do... if this doesn't work, I can re-try, just let me know.
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islandwesty
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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ummm......  this is the box th4e cam came in. Who knows, there was dust all over the cam, so it may have sat on a shelf for a while, and then put in the nearest box.
on second thought, the "SOLD" scribble all over the part number (geniuses) could very well be "SOLID".... (who's the genius now?... me) wish I could read the part number for the black sharpie all over the otherwise balck ink  , and, my cheap-o camera will not provide a close-up at this range with clear focus. sorry
Sticker reads:
HAP3
1 STUECK
(part # obscured)
Made In Germany
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germansupplyscott
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:14 am Post subject: |
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looks to be a solid lifter camshaft. your pictures are not great as you said, but the lobe shape looks like solid from what i am able to see. the cast rings on the middle bearing also look the same as the ones on the solid cam on my page. i have that cam in a box, i will dig it out. do both rings go all the way around or half-way?
pity some einstein wrote right on top of the part number, but you might be able to get really close to it with a bright light and a magnifying glass and see some traces of the printing on the label.
with the right view, the difference in the lobe shape bewteen solid and hydraulic cams is pretty obvious, the solid cam has a much flatter lobe. yours looks flat in the photos, but again they are not very clear. your view with your eyes should tell you, if you look at the photos on my page and at your cam at the same time.
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islandwesty
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I noticed the flatter side on your pics on the solids, and the fatter rounder lobes on the hydros. It does look to me that I may have a solid cam. Yes, the rings go all the way around.
Question about the rings: Of the three cams I pulled from from donor engines (all three have gear 021 109 111c), two of them had the rings that go all around, one did not. One of the donors is a VWoC factory re-build, the cam in there had rings on it. Number 021 101 J on the cam, and 3 by the VW stamp. The other one with rings has 021 101 J and 2A by the VW. The one w/out rings has 022 109 101 A and 3a by the VW.
Now, the NOS cam in question, has the 2 rings and 021 101 J (could be 111 J -- hard to tell) and 3a by the VW,  so did VWoC throw a solid cam in their rebuild? Nice...
Finally, the re-ground cam I have with the 021 109 111B gear has 021 109 ???? on it and an 8 (or a 3) by the VW... hard to tell on that one. This cam has only one ring on it, that goes only half way around. It is on the side of the bearing away from the gear end.
Sorry, didn't occur to compare numbers on the shaft before, I assumed they'd be the same, and with oil on it, it was hard to even see the numbers were there. Does this help any?
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Amskeptic
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| germansupplyscott wrote: |
the difference in the lobe shape bewteen solid and hydraulic cams is pretty obvious, the solid cam has a much flatter lobe.
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Hold up. We gotta get this straight.
The solid profile has the gentler ramp to take up clearance more gently.
The hydraulics are supposed to be totally free of the cast-in bands on either side of the center saddle.
Automatic transmission profiles have two of those bands.
Solid lifters have a single band, no?
Colin 
(so the pictured cam is an automatic solid lifter camshaft for a 1973-77 auto bus?)
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germansupplyscott
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Amskeptic wrote: |
| germansupplyscott wrote: |
the difference in the lobe shape bewteen solid and hydraulic cams is pretty obvious, the solid cam has a much flatter lobe.
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Hold up. We gotta get this straight.
The solid profile has the gentler ramp to take up clearance more gently.
The hydraulics are supposed to be totally free of the cast-in bands on either side of the center saddle.
Automatic transmission profiles have two of those bands.
Solid lifters have a single band, no?
Colin
(so the pictured cam is an automatic solid lifter camshaft for a 1973-77 auto bus?) |
isn't the hydraulic ramp more gentle? it bellies out from the base circle slightly more as it ramps to the apex of the lobe. the solid cam has a lobe that is nearly flat on the ramp, therefore steeper. my understanding of this is that the bellied out ramp keeps the lifter in contact with the lobe more positively and prevents the valves from floating. the hydraulic lifter might have a tendency to bounce off the flat lobe, so the curve is introduced to prevent valve float.
some of the details above are not borne out by what i have on hand. over the past few years i have documented every engine i have taken apart and saved all the cams, marked them with engine serial number and vehicles they came from. this info was kept for engines that i knew positively were original, ie not taken apart since factory built.
for instance i have one cam here that came from a 76 Bus engine, GD code, manual transmission and solid lifters. it has two cast rings, so that seems to contradict one of the items above about the auto cams having two rings. there is no note in the VW parts fiche about cams being different for automatic tranmission versus manual. i know there is a paragraph in the green bentley to this effect, but it is not supported by any other factory literature. i wonder where the editors of the bentley obtained the information in that paragraph on page 59 of their book.
i also note that some cams have had one-half of the cast ring ground off at the factory, not sure what this means but with enough sleuthing it might be able to understand what it means. some of this info in truly academic, since 99.9% of cams that are removed from a used engine are not useable anyhow. but it is good to understand what these details all mean.
what i think would be useful is for me to make a small web page documenting all of these details, but i won't be able to do it any time really soon, it will take me hours to do it and i can't spare the time on it at the moment. it might be useful info for your book, colin, so i will try to document it in a way so it can be shared. at the moment all i have is a bunch of cams in a bin with labels on them...
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germansupplyscott
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| islandwesty wrote: |
| Question about the rings: Of the three cams I pulled from from donor engines (all three have gear 021 109 111c), two of them had the rings that go all around, one did not. One of the donors is a VWoC factory re-build, the cam in there had rings on it. Number 021 101 J on the cam, and 3 by the VW stamp. The other one with rings has 021 101 J and 2A by the VW. The one w/out rings has 022 109 101 A and 3a by the VW. |
the numbers cast into the cam billets are the billet part numbers. there is absolutely no documentation i am aware of that can decode those billet part numbers. the only way to decode them would be to document dozens of torn down engines, some of which work i have done, but i think the excecise is pretty academic since most of the cams are junk anyhow. however as i said above it is a worthwhile project...
| islandwesty wrote: |
| Now, the NOS cam in question, has the 2 rings and 021 101 J (could be 111 J -- hard to tell) and 3a by the VW |
this looks to me to be a solid lift cam for a GD engine, based solely on the fact that i have a cam that exactly fits that description that came from such an engine.
| islandwesty wrote: |
| Finally, the re-ground cam I have with the 021 109 111B gear has 021 109 ???? on it and an 8 (or a 3) by the VW... hard to tell on that one. This cam has only one ring on it, that goes only half way around. It is on the side of the bearing away from the gear end. |
the B gears are magnesium i believe and not as strong as the C gear which is aluminum.
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islandwesty
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all info. I am satisfied this is a solid cam, based on replies, and the fact it was advertised as one (and I bought it anyways duh). Thanks for info on the 111B, if I ever use it I will swap out the gear for a 111C. This has all been enlightening. I may just keep the cam in case I ever build a solid lifter engine, or is solid cam in a CV a different beast?
I am still curious as to why VWoC installed a solid cam in their factory rebuild... (the one in there is *identical* to the NOS one in question, bands, gear and billet #) does anyone know if this was common practice or a goof-up? I am pretty sure the engine was not rebuilt after the factory based on the wear on the parts, and every single part in there had a VW stamp on it.... and this same cam was in another CV I had. Makes me wonder if I should run the cam anyways now.....
I agree, cam info posted somewhere would be beneficial to all, how many posts have we read "I bought this bus, but the PO put the wrong cam in...." although, stock cams are going the way of the dodobird and the info posted would only be beneficial for a limited time.....
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islandwesty
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks again for insight.
I would like to re-open this can o'worms, if I could.
My inquiring mind just has to know why would VWC put (what appears to be) a solid cam in a CV-hydro factory re-build (see previous post). I'm pretty sure nobody has messed with the bottom end since VW did, due to the amount of wear on the cam, and I knew the PO. Seeking permission to double post in engine forum if it helps...
And...... If VW can, why can't I? (not being facetious, can I do this without long term detriment?)
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ratwell
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DurocShark
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| islandwesty wrote: |
And...... If VW can, why can't I? (not being facetious, can I do this without long term detriment?) |
I'd guess it was an "oops". VWoA and VWoC have made some mistakes in their rebuilds in the past. I read on here a while back about one found with mismatched case halves.
I know a couple V8 guys that run solid tappet cams with hydraulics. On purpose. I don't get why, but it's obviously possible.
My concern would be with the hydraulics not being able to truly follow the cam profile. There's a reason cam grinders use that rounded ramp for hydros. To keep the lifter from lifting off then slamming back into the cam at the bottom of the ramp.
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germansupplyscott
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| islandwesty wrote: |
| And...... If VW can, why can't I? (not being facetious, can I do this without long term detriment?) |
you can put any cam in there that you want, so long as it is matched to the lifters and the rest of the valve gear.
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SlowLane
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| DurocShark wrote: |
| I'd guess it was an "oops". VWoA and VWoC have made some mistakes in their rebuilds in the past. I read on here a while back about one found with mismatched case halves. |
Makes you wonder if they were farming work out to GEX.
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