Type 4 timing scale

[furgo]

I've got an aftermarket timing scale that works just fine. It's the aluminum type with printed (not etched) angle values. I've also seen black plastic ones.

But just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the original timing scales looked like? Metal? Plastic? Did they change throughout the years? Did they have markings for the correct static timing of the engine they were installed on?
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[SGKent]

plastic. They are still around.
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[russwiththebus]

I think the originals were painted metal, but the majority are plastic. I replaced mine with an aluminum etched one years ago. They should all have the same markings I think.

CIP1 sells both versions now: http://www2.cip1.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=021-119-249-E

[Bleyseng]

Early type 4 bays had the painted metal ones (72-75) then the rest had the black plastic ones
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76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
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[busman78]

Originals were metal painted white with painted/printed timing scale. As to what year VW switched to the black plastic I do not know, but the only two metal ones I found intact where on unmolested 1.7 engines.

[airschooled]

It's hard for me to post and not start an "aftermarket parts bitch-fest" but I think ignition timing is important enough to bitch about.

Here is Andrewtf's engine with three timing scales; the engine was not turned at all when switching scales. See any issues here?

Early dual carb bus scale:

Fuel injection scale from a later bus:

Piece of shit from a shiny catalog somewhere.

3-4 degrees off isn't a big deal for valve adjustments, but it can be the difference between a long-lasting engine and an engine that can't get out of it's own way…

Robbie
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[furgo]

[Wildthings]

I have certainly considered just installing a pointer on the fan shroud for TDC and eliminating the timing scale. An additional "v" notch on the pulley at 28° BTDC would then be all you need to time your engine.

[SGKent]

and some folks thought I was anal for setting my timing scale TDC to real TDC. After seeing Robbie's comments now you know why...

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=409853&highlight=tdc+timing



.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).

George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."

Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"

[aeromech]

Something tells me that the Chinaman making those scales cares less about accuracy and more about making a buck. Too bad he can't do both at once because it looks to me like making one that's accurate would be about the same amount of work.
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[SGKent]

[aeromech]

[SGKent]

[aeromech]

The time I'm thinking of the fan housing had the 12 o'clock timing hole with the plastic plug. So I could set up TDC using the case split line. Then when I installed the aluminum scale I could see it was off by 3-4 degrees. As I recall there was no possible way to bend it to make it work. I guess I could have welded up the mounting holes and redrilled them but I didn't do that.

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Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[furgo]

Thanks for sharing this. It seems a simple question has opened a can of worms. Which is a good thing, as it hadn't crossed my mind before that the scale might not be accurate. I just trusted it blindly.

So that shows two instances of aluminum scales (two diferent makers by the looks of it) that were off by 4 degrees.

I can't drop the engine to double-check the TDC on the scale, but I can get a plastic scale to compare.

I'm also wondering if there is an easy (read: engine in place) way to tell if a scale is offset or not. I had read in the forums that the fan shroud fin had to be aligned with the 32° mark, but I did not know if it was an accurate piece of information.

Now looking at Robbie's pictures, it would seem that the OG painted metal scale and the (aftermarket or OG?) plastic one do align with the shroud fin at 32°, whereas the aluminum aftermarket one doesn't.

Then again, it might also be the angle at which the pictures were taken.
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[Wildthings]

I think the V mark is there on the inside of all the fan shrouds (could be wrong here) and it would not be that hard to accurately make a TDC mark on the fan to align it with. You could then just drill a hole in the top center of the fan shroud to check the timing scale accuracy. The hole would need to be plugged somehow when you were done. A piece of sheet metal and a couple of screws would do, though there are many possible solutions.

[Busstom]

Here's a winner for ya, from Bus Depot. And I bought it because the kid on the other end of the line said "Uhhh, yeah, it's engraved." Yeah, it's not.

6mm screws don't fit through the holes, the left end isn't fully bent to a 90, but 45 instead. The spacing between the graduations is inconsistent, it actually has a smaller radius (the curvature) than the OE scale, and most annoying of all, I was told that the characters were engraved. Yep, straight outta China. It looks like one above is the exact same one, except both ears were bent 90 degrees.

Easy fixes, yes. No, I didn't complain to them...it's not worth my time.

[furgo]

Wow, well spotted!

Here's mine, bought on the other side of the pond but coming from exactly the same place. I do remember having to fiddle with it to fit, but it was a long time ago and I didn't document it back then (which you did a great job at, btw).

That inconsistent spacing between 24° and 26° is also there on mine. At least 1 degree if not more:

For one thing, I'll be happy if this thread at least shows folks which scale not to get.
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[Busstom]

[aeromech]

6mm screws don't fit through the holes,

Yep, same here. Now guys, how freaking hard is it to make the holes fit a 6M bolt?
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound