Air conditioning....WHILE PARKED

[purpleonion98]

Hi, all. I'm interested in any ideas of having air conditioning while the engine is OFF. This mod may/may not be permanently attached to the van and must be rechargeable for nighttime use. The ac unit would be used for better sleeping and especially during the day, while my 1990 tin top westy is usually much hotter than outside. I've mostly come across swamp coolers where you add ice or water...but after experimenting with a diy one, it wont work, i'd have to get ice all the time, and it will add to the humidity. I'm more interested in a small compressor ac. Ive come across one called "zero breeze" but i hesitate because it will cost about $2000 with 2 batterries that should last through the night. I also hesitate because next year they will be coming out with a better model that will include automatic turn on at a set temp, which will be great in prolonging the battery charge. But i need it this year!!! I've also considered mounting something 12 volt to the top of the van like a camper has, but it couldnt be big (i can buy another aux battery if needed and charge it with my solar panel). What has anyone else done?

[Abscate]

Due to a field of engineering and science called thermodynamics, you need to generate about 1/3 the energy you would like to remove to cool a vehicle

This means you need to run the motor or a generator. There are no miracle technology coolers that run off storage sources.
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[mikemtnbike]

I don’t think this is possible with current tech without thousands more in batteries and panels. It might not be realistic even then. With what we have available now, you need 110 or a generator.
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[jimf909]

You've e discovered that swamp coolers work well in the dry heat of the southwest but are lousy in humid midwestern weather. There are many AC solutions if you have access to AC power (shore power) or a generator.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

This pic is always a crowd favorite...

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[djkeev]

Plenty of information here!
Let’s continue to build upon this data base.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=417287

Dave
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[Tobias Duncan]

First , welcome to the Samba!
Six years as a silent member and unfortunately your very first post is a question that does not have a happy answer.
There are vanlife people who have pulled off solar powered AC but they have huge rigs with oceans of solar panels and many thousands of dollars worth of batteries.
We are never going to have enough room in our vans to make this happen, its not even close.

[Ahwahnee]

Yeah, Midwest summer camping can be great but can also be hot & sticky.

Short of using a 110V AC there isn't much you can do about it.

At least in the West we can get to altitude. Leaving Tucson I can spend each night at at least 7,000' until I get where I am going -- just have to open the hatch and prop up the mattress to let the rear section cool down before bedtime.

[drj434343]

I think it could be done on a Vanagon based on my experience, but it would be an exotic and expensive endeavor. I was able to fit 400W of solar on my pop-top (no skylight early model). In my estimation you would need triple that to begin to run efficient small AC systems (1000-1200W). I've seen some vans (non Vanagon) outfitted with 3 layer roof solar. Two of the lower layers are on rollers and wing out on either side of the roof when deployed, effectively tripling the roof area. Carrying this over to a Vanagon would theoretically mean 1200W of potential solar using a setup like that.

Significant challenges would be:
* Weight and height of the setup
* Stability and strength of the popped roof when the wings are deployed tripling the roof area
* Ideal direct sun positioning to get your 1200W.

If I had unlimited money and time I would try it for the bragging rights alone.

[4Gears4Tires]

It's very simple: Park inside an air conditioned garage.


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'87 Syncro Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition
'85 Westy Sciuridae Domus Edition

[?Waldo?]

It's very simple. Leave the engine running all night and use an inverter to power a box fan blowing through the condenser...

[purpleonion98]

Zero breeze company started in 2016 and so far its the only company i see that sells a small rechargeable compressor ac. I cant find any used ones online unfortunately. Numerous sites have listed it as one of the top portable ac's. If anyone would like to pitch in on the price tag ill tell you if it works! ☺☺☺

[purpleonion98]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-DC-Air-Conditioner-...890.l49292


I found this on ebay. Its $900. Uses 450 watts. 450 divided by 12 volts=37.5 amps. 120 ah battery divided by 37.5=3 hours. If my math is correct, it would take 3-4 deep cell batterries at 120 ah each for this ac to work about 10 hours? So $900 plus $600 for batteries ($200 each) is still cheaper than zero breeze.

[vwhammer]

AC off grid is possible.
You just need more solar and bigger batteries.

All I can do is offer up some numbers and see if I can change anyone's mind.

Of course these are all nominal figures that do not take into account losses at at the inverter or any other point.

So a typical 10000BTU window AC unit on average uses about 1000 watts at full power.
You can find more efficient units and that would be better but 1000 is a good number to work with so we will use that.

I have four 32 volt 295 watt monocrystalline panels that can fit on the roof of a Vanagon with a little bit of overhang. (my van is a tin top so no concern over the pop top)
295 watts x 4 panels equals 1180 watts.
Realistically mono panels are the only way to get that kind of solar on a Vanagon roof as they generally offer more power per square inch

Just looking at the numbers (1000 watt AC and 1180 watts solar) it appears that the panels could actually run the AC unit on their own.
Once again, this is based on nominal terms and a perfect scenario.

There are other factors like current spikes during compressor start up and actual output of the panels depending on age and sun.

What we need is a buffer between the AC unit and the panels
We need something that can deal with those current spikes and low output situations from the panels
you have probably guessed that the buffer in this instance is the battery.

Lithium iron phosphate is the only real option at this time to achieve the needed capacity in the space provided.
I might suggest at least a 24 volt 240 amp hour battery.
This equates to 5760 watt hours.

Lets assume I will only use about 80% of that capacity for the sake of battery life.

That gives us 4600 watt hours of capacity.
Now we divide that 4600 by the 1000 watts required to run our AC unit and you get 4.6 hours.

So theoretically this AC unit would run at full power for 4.6 hours on the battery alone.
During the day obviously there will be input from the solar that could keep this system running indefinitely in a perfect scenario.

The real test will be overnight.

One key ingredient to make all this really work will be insulation.
a little reflectix under some wood paneling is not going to cut it here.
You will need proper insulation.

It is also important to note how much you insulate each surface.
You actually need very little insulation on the floor and as much as you can fit on the roof.
The sides would be something in the middle of the floor and roof.

A proper two part spray foam is about the best for actual R value and making things air tight.
Some people think spray foam is a bad idea in a van because it might promote rust.

I am inclined to disagree but I have a solution for those that have such concerns.

I might be inclined to spray foam the roof and down the side of the van to just below the windows.
Get about 2 inches on the roof and cut it back to about 1 inch on the walls.
For the remainder of the walls some 1 inch rigid blue or pink insulation cut to fit in as many places as you can get it would probably be your best bet if rust is a concern.
For the floors some 1/4 inch or 1/2 inch rigid poly underlayment insulation topped with your choice of flooring should be just fine.

Everything will need to be sealed up real good and you will need something more than a plain old curtain to insulate the windows.
I don't have a solution to the windows yet but there are likely several options that could be whipped up.

With a properly insulated space the need for the AC to be on full power will drop significantly.
Obviously, with the AC compressor not running full time our run-time will increase by a significant amount.

Will the insulation be enough so the compressor only runs half that time so the battery will last twice as long?
I can only say maybe.
It all depends on the outside temp and the set temp.
Maybe you could turn the temp up a little bit at night and still sleep comfortably with just a fan blowing on you.

Or maybe the whole thing will go off and you will die a fiery death.

There is also a chance that 10000BTU would be overkill and you could get away with 8000 or even 5000BTU.
That would make this all the more feasible.
You could then get longer run times or possibly downsize the system a little for packaging and cost.

The battery, being lithium, will be much smaller and lighter than traditional batteries.

With what is available currently the battery I mentioned should be approximately 14x11.25x8 inches and weigh less than 100lbs
This could likely be stuffed in some existing space in the van or the space between the engine deck lid and the back of the rear seat could be opened up to make more space for batteries and associated components. (unless you have a syncro).

How you mount the ac is up to you.
There are a few clever people out there that fabbed up set ups to hang a window unit in one of the windows of the van.
This would work but would require set up.
A window AC unit could also be broken down and the components placed where it makes the most sense but this requires some knowledge of AC systems or knowing someone with such knowledge.

So there it is.
This is a very general rundown of how this can work.
There are still other components like the charge controller and inverter that I did not cover.
There's nothing as far as those are concerned that really differs much from the standard PV systems that a lot of people use on vans.
You will need an inverter that can handle two or three times your AC units rated power to take into account the current spike that is required to start the compressor.

For redundancy, I might also be inclined to bring one of the 2000 watt inverter generators for the cases where there may not be any sun for days (like Ohio in any season other than summer)
Of course it might not be as hot during those days and some fans might suffice.

Will all of this be cheap?.. Nope but I can say with the kind of money some people spend on these vans it is definitely not the most costly item you could add.
If buying every thing brand new, depending on the size of AC unit you pick, you are probably looking at $1000 to $2000 for batteries, $150 to $500 for an AC unit, $700 to $1200 for solar panels, $300 to $1000 for an inverter, depending on what quality you are comfortable with and another $300 to $500 for insulation.
The charge controller will set you back another $250 to $800 once again depending on the quality and then there will probably be another $300 to $500 for wire and connectors and such thing to connect it all together.

AC for camping is not as impossible as some might make you believe but if you do the math it's not hard to see that this is a costly endeavor.
you are looking at $3k minimum just to accomplish such a thing that should work and $6k on the top end of things for something that will work

Can this be installed by any average person? Probably not but the parts exist right now.

You could save a lot of bucks by simply insulating well, getting a smaller AC window unit (or better yet one of these https://rollibot.com/product/mini-split-ac-room-air-conditioner/) and maybe a couple of fans.
You can then get a cheapo 2000 watt inverter generator and built a vented enclosure that you place over the generator to reduce the noise and you're all set.
You might need an extra can of gas for any extended stays but that's pretty easy to sort out.

[pbrown]

You might want to research some of the electric compressors. You would need to operate the radiator cooling fan, the compressor, and the evaporator blower fans. I don't know what kind of load that would be but suspect that it would be a lot.

Put an ammeter in-line on the radiator fan and blower fans. Try to determine what kind of load they use.

You'd want to ensure that the AC system is in top shape. You'll probably need to replace all hoses, dryer, etc.

https://www.electricaircon.com/products/rencool-md18-12v-or-24v-electric-air-conditioning-compressor

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000064575870.html
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[skills@eurocarsplus]

blow out the back window and install a diesel reefer unit from a wrecked/retired truck

one note on electric compressors they require a special Polyol Ester (POE) A/C refrigerant oil that is non-conductive.

and you can't use a r134a machine that does auto/direct injection of the oil. any trace of PAG/ESTER will kill, and potentially cause the compressor to short and burst into flames.

honestly, you'd be better off finding a ventilated seat bladder. they use a fan to pull heat out of the seat (at least that's how most euro junk I work on operate)

basically, the fan creates a slight vacuum that in turn pulls the heat away from your body. they aren't always tied into the HVAC system as many people think
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[erdonline]

Besides the power requirements, the Zero Breeze is only 2,300 BTU. It might be barely enough for night-time temps with the top down, but I don't think it would be effective with the tip popped or at all during the day.

Ed
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[purpleonion98]

[Silverghost500]

Engineering a solar panel and battery bank configuration to run an air conditioner while stationary would add a tremendous amount of weight, cost, and complexity to the Vanagon platform. You'd be stuck driving around with a lot of that in weather that you wouldn't need air conditioning too.

I'm using a 5,000 BTU window air conditioner bought from a local big box store, and a 2,000 gas generator sourced from Tractor Supply. The system works great, cools the van off well. The gas generator comes with me when boon docking, and stays home when I'm going to a camp site with shore power.

All components combined I've got less than $800 invested.
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[dhaavers]

^^^ Indeed. Essentially you have two workable options, one of which is reasonable:

1) 5000 BTU window unit + generator... (slightly noisy, but portable, practical, affordable...)
2) 5000 BTU window unit + huge inverter + huge battery bank + solar or other system to charge + trailer to haul everything... (silent, but barely portable, practical or affordable)

Your choice...

- Dave
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
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[Jeffrey Lee]