Air conditioning for a 1974 Westfalia

[kilcash]

My question is how well will a portable A/C like either of these two work for me in my Westfalia when traveling?(https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0C149SVBM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3RCRUQZKOMTW7&psc=1) or this (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09D3GW4V4/ref=ewc_pr_img_4?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1)

The new Ecoflow wave 2 portable air conditioner sounds awesome but it also cost about $700 more expensive.

I'm about a month away from finishing the restoration of my orange 1974 Westfalia. It's an automatic with a GEX rebuilt 1976 2L motor and the original dual carbs (not sure if they're Solex, Dellorto, or other). I'm trying to make this rig as comfortable as possible for travel and camping up and down the east coast, maybe even take out to Northern Michigan if I get really ambitious.
So far I've installed:
1) 360 Ah of lithium batteries which includes a 60Ah starter battery
2) 3000W inverter/charger
3) Renogy 12V 40A DC to DC charger
4) 60A MPPT solar charge controller
5) Bluetti PV420 420w portable solar panels

Power usage: I have a decent 4-speaker stereo system installed, might add a subwoofer soon, have upgraded H4 headlights, and I've ordered a Bodega 61Q 12V fridge (mostly because I'm hoping it slots perfectly in between the sink base cabinet and ice box cabinet) and may order a second Bodega 27 Q fridge to use as a dedicated freezer because it should fit under the rear bench seat/bed when in use. Coffee maker is also a must.

I'm thinking I'll put another 100W rigid solar panel permanently installed on the roof to take advantage of solar power when driving or parked in urban/suburban settings. Considering a gas powered generator to supplement power when camping.

Anyone have experience doing something similar? Am I going to need to upgrade my alternator and put in a 100+ amp Delco alternator? Interested to hear any suggestions.

[RalphWiggam]

I'd suggest staying pretty close to home with a GEX engine.

Either that or AAA on speed dial.

[Abscate]

Portable ACs will work at camp but not on road.

There is no viable 12 Vdc AC solution
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[grantspensley]

I think we are running similar paths here. I’ve got 260ah of lithium batteries and 400 watts of flexible solar on the pop top of my Westfalia. The main goal was to have ac while going down the road and at camp. I went the cheap route first with an icy breeze cooler that will blow cold air from the heat exchanger and icy water. It’s half a step from a swamp cooler and it did not help much. I’ve had my eye on all sorts of units from the rooftop ac that run 12 volt to the cheap and easy 110 units you posted. I think the Ecoflow wave 2 might have to be the next attempt but I worry about running just one duct for the hot air. I like that it doubles as a heater for the cooler nights.

Dometic 12v AC
https://rackupgo.com/products/dometic-rtx-2000-air...NAEALw_wcB

This is super expensive but I think it could fit right in the luggage rack of the westy. Way too scared to try it for both cost and giant hole in the roof reasons. Also the worst feeling would be if it didn’t even really work.

Anyway, let me know if you take a swing with the Ecoflow and I’ll check back in if I do the same.

Also, I would go with flexible panels vs rigid. I used corrugated plastic for an air gap and eternabond tape to keep it on the fiberglass top. Run the wires down the air vent for the engine and it’s a no drill solution.

I also upgraded my alternator to a 75amp from bnr parts. I’ve heard of the 100+amp ac Delco but I went with the one in the stock shape.

[SGKent]

Do the math. The smaller 115V version uses 4.5amps at 115V, and is 518 watts.

SK
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[grantspensley]

Appreciate the help with this. I’m not as concerned about what could be done as much as what could be done efficiently so I can run it day and night while camping. I want to use a 12v system so I don’t lose energy through the inverter. I also want it to be able to run off grid.

[Abscate]

[metahacker]

https://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/
true 12/24vdc AC

the ecoflow2 ac might work, just barely. it's not enough of a safety margin IMO at 5k btu. i can tell you this much- the zero breeze mk2 is totally worthless (and expensive AF)

you are going to need a lot of Ah if you want to run an A/C while camping
at night, could be plausible
daytime, for a couple zoom calls perhaps
but taking 300+Ah out of your batteries will take a very long time to replenish

DC DC, alternator and solar all become bottlenecks at that point
360ah with a 40a dcdc means 9+ hours of full alternator output
with 400W solar, well....... 2-3 days with no consumption?

with a 270a alt on a subaru, under 2 hrs.
but if you're using an inverter charger at a campsite, can just run off that

you'll probably want 3M crystalline window tint and insulation, as well
and I'd say >400Ah LFP with a second alternator @ 14.4V ruining straight to the batteries without a DC DC wouldn't hurt

don't give up :)
you're not the only one trying to inch their way towards vw bus lithium AC nirvana

[airschooled]

[Abscate]

Math hasn’t changed in 2023

For N nights at camp, where N=4 for a long weekend, you need

500 watts 8 hours at night for N nights ….16,000 watts hours of battery for 12 VDC AC. Carrying that battery around for AC is possible but crazy expensive and heavy.
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[94touring]

I have a portable AC unit I occasionally use in the bus while camping. Used it this summer a few times at the lake while staying in the bus and our friends stayed on their boat at the marina. I want to say it's 6000 btus. I either run it off shore power, as is the case at this marina, or a 2200 watt generator/inverter. I sit it on the front seat, with the vent going out the front quarter light glass opening. The bus depot front wrap around window shade helps fill in gaps around the vent tube to keep out ambiant air. A tube for water drainage runs to the floor and out under the door. I can get it down into the upper 60s inside the bus while it's in the 90s outside. I've thought about sitting the generator on the rear cargo holder off my hitch and running the AC from behind the front seats while doing one of my summer cross country drives, but haven't attempted that yet.

[jjvincent]

[SGKent]

a 300aH battery will provide 3600 watts for 1 hour. Most electrical units stop when the voltage falls so rarely does one get to use the full 300aH. The AC the OP asked about has a smaller version that uses 518 watts. With inverter losses that is about 600 watts. If someone got 80% use of 3600 watts that is 2880 watts. Divide by 600 and that means about 4.8 hours of battery use. At 50% of the 100 amp alternator output, that means the engine has to run 4.8 hours to recharge the battery for the next 4.8 hour night. Maybe if the thermostat is raised to something like 85F then one might be able to get thru the full night.

We go thru this question EVERY year for the last 20 years. In 3 more months the question will come up about heating the vehicles at night. The trucking industry goes thru this too, as does the RV industry. They use either the engine running all night or a generator(s) to run AC and they use diesel or propane to run heat. If you go to many national parks they will tell you that you can run the generator for about an hour during breakfast, lunch and dinner, but you will be asked to leave the park campgrounds if you run the generator outside of those hours. In some parks rules are so tight now that you can't even have a morning campfire anymore. If you park under trees for the shade, one squirrel throwing a pine cone can ruin your solar panel. If you put your panels in the shade they won't work. Solar is great for keeping a battery topped off for laptop and cell charging, small appliances but it is not so good trying to run AC or heat all night long.

We have friends who have multiple AC units in their show truck. They have redundant units because every year one will crap out for some reason or another. They also have redundant generators for that reason. That is what it will take if someone wants reliable cooling in their bus. That said, just having fans that move air in and out of the bus will help a lot to keep heat down, so will opening windows and letting air cool one self. The lowest cost unit are window swap coolers that work when the bus is moving.
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[Shonandb]

I'm in final stages of hooking up my AC in my Bus with the focus to use it during the day when we're stuck in traffic and open windows don't help much or when driving through smog or forest fire smoke (the new norm in the summer in the PNW).

I don't think we would want to use AC at night as I've found a couple well placed fans to keep the air moving is comfortable with the pop top and all the windows open. However, we've only camped in temps up to the low 90s F range.

Our existing aux battery and solar set up is more than enough to power the fans and our other off grid needs.
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76 Westy with a 2.5L Subaru SOHC + Vanagon (010) Automatic Transaxle
Build & Trip Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758760
Previous 1973 Panel Bus:
Click to view image

[jjvincent]

[SGKent]

just doing some search engine research, it appears 14,000 BTU to 20,000 BTU is normal design for a car AC, and a 5 to 7 hp drain on engine performance. Anyone with a true 5 hp electric motor will know how much current a 120V circuit needs to be designed for to run that true 5 hp motor. 5 hp is 3700 watts. At 12V that is 308 amps. Anything that will run in a bus off AC will be a work around rather than true AC.

Like you said, you have a 4000 watt generator. It could go on a hitch platform. At a gallon an hour, you would need probably a 15 gallon tank to run it all day and night between gas stops and camping. At $4 a gallon that is $60 a day to cool the bus in fuel costs.

Is that math right? Double check it for me.
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[Abscate]

The 12VDC A/C ( for Dave) threads needs the canoe paddle treatment
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[grantspensley]

I forgot to check back on this but thank you all for the feedback. I’m going to take the leap and get the wave 2. I realize my ambitions are high for this project and that there will never be enough power to run the AC all day and night without some significant power in addition to the solar and battery setup. I have the inverter charger so anytime I can plug into shore power I will be taking advantage of that option.

My plan for the bus is to take it to music festivals. I figured that parked in a field with full sun the battery could charge all day on solar while we enjoyed the festival and we would have a shot at decent ac for the few hours a night we would sleep. If we had access to shore power that would be a bonus but if we didnt, we had a way to recharge phones and run the ac to cut the temp down a bit. The wave 2 comes with its own battery that will run it for 8 hours on low or 3 hours on full blast. In addition to my 260ah set up I think we can make it through the night. As noted by others, getting those batteries all charged up during the day comes with its own challenges. Could add some portable solar panels to the mix to bump the total to 800watts. As Robbie said, money can solve this, but it gets very expensive very quickly.

As for going down the road, I need something to cool the bus while I sit in Chicago traffic with no airflow. I’m hoping the wave 2 can handle this, but will still be relying on fans to move that single source of cold air around the cabin.


Finally a quick rundown of my set up and cost so far:
2 valence 136ah batteries bought used off eBay for $400 for the pair
4 110 watt sunpower flexible solar panels for $150 each
Renogy 50 amp dc-dc charger with mppt solar controller $200
This thing is amazing because it charges both the house and starter batteries off solar when available and also takes the power from the alternator to charge the house battery while going down the road.
Victron multiplus compact 2000watt 80 amp inverter charger $200 used off Facebook marketplace(this was by far the biggest steal of all, retail is $1200)
Cables, wiring, etc $200
Ecoflow wave 2 with battery $1500, yet to be purchased, but soon.

So yeah, over $1600 so far and I bought many things used or at steep discounts. This is why making sure I get the right AC unit is really important since it will be as much as I have already spent on the system to get here.

Just for fun and so you can learn from my mistakes, I spent $200 on the icy breeze cooler and it can melt a 20lb bag of ice in an hour but it does spit cold air for a bit. Again used off Facebook marketplace but still a waste of money. Also spent $700 on a retrofit heated and cooled seats kit when I redid the front seats. They barely do anything but on the hottest days it’s some mild relief. My biggest regret by far but the heated seats are nice on that November drive to the family farm for winter storage

I’m redoing all the wiring this week to make room for the recently purchased inverter charger. Right now it’s all stuffed into the spare tire cabinet of the westy. Will send photos when it’s updated.

[metahacker]

that Victron MultiPlus is a really ideal unit, nice score BTW

anyways, you have the right idea and you can do it

if you can pump enough solar and amp-hours, sleeping all the way thru the night with A/C every night isn't a fantasy (anymore, at least...with lithium, monocrystalline solar and higher SEER DC based A/C systems...not so much a couple years ago...)

a DC based system can do 5000+ BTU at ~500-600W and that's realistic to run for 8 hours with a 50-70% duty cycle on just under 300Ah (at night)
personally, i think 400+Ah is the right number.. but that Wave2 looks about right for night duties. for "at speed" in direct sun, it may be more of a spot cooling type experience than a normal car A/C feel... i think >8000BTU would be better to use driving through the desert or something. in stop-n-go traffic the wave 2 will probably make a major impact though. stationary at night though, it could be life-changing. i've seen some "vanlife" Zero Breeze MK2 setups that are plumbed to just cool the inside of the bedding and they apparently worked REALLY well, and that's a lower BTU unit (not enough to cool a stationary bus in the day time, in my personal experience...sold that stupid Zero Breeze).

once you get enough amp-hours in the battery bank, the thing that will make it possible to go longer than 1 night and still have the operation running as intended will be lots of solar to replenish (and not running AC in the daytime except sporadically) - 800W would probably be ideal .. supplemental external folding panels can be your friend here .. and YMMV in real operation, this is an on-the-bleeding-edge type of setup .. i could see having good days and bad days .. but i think at a festival i would feel like i had a god cheat code pulling off A/C at night, even for just the first couple hours

a victron smart batteryprotect may be a useful tool in providing some more carefully managed DC current to the A/C .. so you can prioritize things like keeping a fridge running 24-7 .. hopefully the device would not present some incompatible capacitive load on the BatteryProtect that isn't allowed

[germansupplyscott]

Beware of Renogy solar controllers, they have spotty reputation in the marine world. I would use a Victron controller.
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