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73notch
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2003
Posts: 667
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 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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i thought type 4s were more popular over there because it would be too expensive for a t1 buildup.
what i agree with is the need for an affordable head like the t1 has. there was a post on samba about putting stock t1 mild ported heads on a 2332. I bet that thing would have a Damn near or better torque curve as a t4 of similar size.
And this argument about russ and when he used stock ported heads, well, he switched, cause they were the limiting factor obviously. he had worked heads on it, im sure back then, people had crazy worked stock t1 heads when there wasnt really an aftermarket head available for the t1. they made decent power too
someone needs to just bite the bullet and make some t4 heads. Not insane ones, just something like 044s in type 4 form or something.
some one is making ohc heads for the t4 as we speak, but just for a minute think how much r&d has gone into these, they are gunna be stupid expensive if they are ever for sale.
so ya,
-Ryan
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moggy
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2004
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| danimal wrote: |
moggy, i see that you have once again failed to post *any* type 4 Group 3J information... was it because you couldn't locate any type 4 pig motors in the class? lol... you shot your mouth off and couldn't back it up, as usual:
Group 3J 1601- 2000 cc record is 26.67 held by grant cook from 1998
1ST grant cook 27.86 69 beetle 1916 cc
2nd Ben Durie in the same 69 28.48
3rd Greg Ward 1916 cc Beetle 28.70
http://www.clubvw.org.au/vw_in_motorsport.htm |
Why would you want to race in the smaller engine capacity class with a Type4, it's like saying 'Well you don't see many Scat engines running in Street class' NO and good reason... . The Type4 engined bug was doing that course in 25 secs whereas the Type1 powered bugs were doing it a whole 3seconds slower.
Again I've directly answered your comment.....  but do I see any responses to the questions I aimed at you...NO. Ignorance is bliss eh Dan? |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Nope....
Nothing like a good ole TAG TEAM!
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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danimal
Banned
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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moggy, i see that you have once again failed to post *any* type 4 Group 3J information... was it because you couldn't locate any type 4 pig motors in the class? lol... you shot your mouth off and couldn't back it up, as usual:
Group 3J 1601- 2000 cc record is 26.67 held by grant cook from 1998
1ST grant cook 27.86 69 beetle 1916 cc
2nd Ben Durie in the same 69 28.48
3rd Greg Ward 1916 cc Beetle 28.70
http://www.clubvw.org.au/vw_in_motorsport.htm
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moggy
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2004
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
I'll answer this one later...
I have a ton of really good stuff lined up for my reply... |
BACK OFF JAKE...  He's mine  
Last edited by moggy on Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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moggy
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2004
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="danimal"]dave, we have to remember that the brits and the rest of europe are clueless about type 4 development here in america... fat and others have been doing it for decades, but they have not been competitive in drag racing, because the type 4 pig motor simply can't run with the type 1 when it comes to making power.[./quote]
LOL At least I know where Europe is...LOL You got the hang of where Germany and France are now?! Mummy stuck some pins in yer globe for ya
I think you'll find that us Europeans are VERY aware of Type4 development and it's history over in the US by the likes of FAT, I for one in particular due to my fascination from a young age in off-road racing AND the Type4. It's just that the Europeans seem to have taken the lead since long ago in the Type4 dvlt, in not only recent motorsport series like the Kafer Cup and Super VW Cup but going back further.. to motocross and ice racing. The number of WELL established Type4 specialists in Europe is testament to the engine's success in both motorsport and street applications.
[quote="danimal"]holding up russ fellows as some sort of a type 4 icon is a joke... the guy bailed out of his type 4 heads because he couldn't make any power with 'em... i would like to know what head stud pattern he is running with those porsche heads.[./quote]
Not that I'm holding him up as an icon, merely an example, and I'd hardly call someone like Russ a joke
He couldn't make power with the Type4 heads eh???? So, 265bhp in a heavy road legal bug that covered the 1/4 in 11.79 in that setup and totaled approx 60,000miles in that spec is NOT enough power for ya  Not bad for an engine which was basically made up of secondhand original Type4 parts?
[quote="danimal"]this is earth calling moggy the misinformed: you might start out by looking at the history of Group 2E/Group 3J in australia... notice how the type 1 dominates? show us ANY competitive type 4 cars in that class[./quote]
Earth calling Moggy eh? I think earth has long given up trying to contact you up there Dan, it's not that you're too far away, more like you're in another Dimension... the 'Denial Dimension'  LOL
I just covered the hill climb class' in my post above... or have you got problems with words now aswell, maybe I should start putting everything into pictures for ya 3J is for sub 2litre engines, why -with the potential of the Type4 would you limit yourself to sub2litre.
Now I've answered your issues (and God knows you've got plenty of them....I bet you've got a rich shrink  ). How about answering some of mine I raised such as...know anyone running original Type1 case, crank, rods and heads that are pushing 400-500bhp??? All the guys I see here in the UK pushing into the 9's with their street driven Bugs have things like Scat cranks, Scat rods, Comp Eliminator heads etc etc.
Last edited by moggy on Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:43 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'll answer this one later...
I have a ton of really good stuff lined up for my reply...
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Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Daniel G
Crazy Amish Guy
Joined: April 23, 2004
Posts: 828
Location: Central Alabama Amish Country
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:18 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if any 400hp T1 engines have reworked stock heads? I'm thinking there aren't very many that do. The reason you can't buy any aftermarket T4 heads designed for drag racing right now is simply due to the laws of supply and demand. No company is going to take the time and expense to make one when there aren't many drag T4's at the moment. Once there is a market for them, they will be sold. I can't wait to see what the Apfelbeck heads can do. I am sure they will cost a fortune, but imagine the power they will be capable of. Here's a link, if anyone wants to check it out...www.apfelbeck.nl
Also, I remember reading about a turbo T4 dragster a few years ago in VWT. If I remember right, it had about 400hp and it ran stock heads. I will see if I can find more about it later.
Daniel
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danimal
Banned
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:46 am Post subject: |
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dave, we have to remember that the brits and the rest of europe are clueless about type 4 development here in america... fat and others have been doing it for decades, but they have not been competitive in drag racing, because the type 4 pig motor simply can't run with the type 1 when it comes to making power.
holding up russ fellows as some sort of a type 4 icon is a joke... the guy bailed out of his type 4 heads because he couldn't make any power with 'em... i would like to know what head stud pattern he is running with those porsche heads.
this is earth calling moggy the misinformed: you might start out by looking at the history of Group 2E/Group 3J in australia... notice how the type 1 dominates? show us ANY competitive type 4 cars in that class.
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moggy
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2004
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| Here in America the type I dominates almost all forms of VW racing, |
What 'forms' of VW racing are you referring to?  |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15599
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:23 am Post subject: |
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Here in America the type I dominates almost all forms of VW racing, however this is not necessarly true in other parts of the world. We must all remember that before getting into a fist fight over typeI vs Type IV. In other parts of the world, the Type IV's have much more popularity then here in the USA.
Personally, I'm not dedicated enough to air cooloed cars to spend the 6-7 grand necessary for a type IV engine. They are just simply not economically feasible to me. It's cheaper to build a V-8 Mustang. I respect Jake for what he accomplishes with the Type IV, but in the end he is foolishly wasting his money.
Oicdn.....
I'm sorry, but I don't see what your drag racing experence with Civic's and Cavalier's have to do with VW's. This web site is all about VW's. This particular thread is about Type I vs. Type IV, in which I have many years experience drag racing several VW's with different Type I engines, so I feel I have valid impute in this thread. If you want to compare trophies, championships, and 1099's, then lets take it to the rants and play.
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moggy
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2004
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| danimal wrote: |
| poor moggy... months ago i posted those australian hillclimbing links (to the thread that got deleted), where a type 1 dominated the type 4's in the allmotor class... the fact that you deliberately didn't mention it now is a testament to your character, and it shows how far out of touch you are over there... flat 4 performance hardly begins and ends in england, lol. |
PMSL......I'm getting a lecture on 'character' from DANIMAL LOL!!!!!!! Jeezus Dan you don't half make me laugh sometimes but that one took the biscuit, I nearly fell off my chair
Also, a quick geography lesson, Germany and France (who ran the Kafer Cup and SuperVW Cup) are not in England I do not live in England, I live in Wales. England, Wales, Scotland and N Ireland are like your US States... generalising that the UK or GB is England is not only extremely insulting to anyone from Wales, Scotland and NI but it's just plain dumb. It's like me referring to the US all the time as Florida
Poor Danimal.... with all this post whoring (as you like to call it Dan) you seem to be losing your memory. You found a couple of cars in the below 2litre class (NOT allmotor) that were running Type1 motors, there weren't any Type4 powered bugs in that class (so how could they be dominating the Type4 here??)!!! Where were the Type4 powered bugs I here you ask??? Well suprise suprise...they were in the 2-3litre sports sedans class winning against allcomers (not just Type1 powered bugs) AND setting new track records. To refresh your memory, here's a quote from a NSW hill climb article, about Wayne Penrose' Type4 powered bug:
"Wayne Penrose is murdering the opposition in Sports Sedans 2001-3000 cc. In his first year of the Championship Wayne is leading the class undefeated breaking class records along the way. Continuing where he left off at Ringwood Wayne broke the class record here at Huntley with a time of 25.??. In a 62 swinger!!!"
Here's a link to Waynes site:
http://www.wpvw.com.au/hill_trophy.htm
Also... in the Open Wheelers class the Type1 engines were nowhere to be seen, however Peter Gumley was very succesfull in his Type4 supercharged racer:
"In the big banger open wheeler category Formula Libre over 2000 cc anything goes. Peter Gumley reigning outright champion runs a 2.3 litre supercharged type 4. This class is very closely fought out between Peter and Eric Barnes in a Farrel F2 S/C."
Peter gets 500bhp out of his 2.3litre supercharged motor and just like with my supercharged Type4 he uses a stock, crankshaft, con-rods, case and stock heads (although obviously ported and modded). In the last 6years of full on racing only one rod has let go (which Peter thinks may have been cracked before he put it in!) not bad for a stock part that is now putting up with over 6 1/2 times the power it was intended. DAN - know of any Type1 engines making that kind of power with stock crank, rods, crankcase and heads??
Also... I read an article the other day about the fastest Beetle on the Bonneville flats.... hey guess what he runs a Type4 engine!!
Also... when I spoke to a number of the off-road specialists in the US earlier this year to discuss what they recommended engine-wise for next season (I'll be moving to enduro point-to-point events, more like the US SCORE series) they ALL recommended I use the Type4 as the base platform for more reasons than I care to go into now, suffice to say (as one of them put it) 'if you really want to stick with an air-cooled (not Porsche) and you want to win and win consistently you need to go with the Type4'
So to re-cap (especially for you Dan as I know your memory is on the blink )
Winners choice has proven to be the Type4 for the following:
Circuit Racing
Off-road racing
Hill climbs
Winners choice is the Type1 for the following:
Drag racing???
Oh.... but hang on what's this???
Twice Street Champion - runner up once
Twice Super Street Champion - runner up once
VW Pro Champion 2003 - runner up 2004
Why it's a Type4 engine'd beetle owned and raced by Russ Fellows that is VERY frequently driven on the street. YES DAN it runs Porsche heads.... but he still uses a stock secondhand 2litre crank and con-rods (with over 160000miles on them) and a Type4 crankcase, producing about 400bhp. Russ ran 11sec runs with the old Type4 heads and is now knocking on the door of a 9sec run with the Porsche heads. Russ told me once that the Type4 heads are fine for anything up to 200hp but after that the law of diminishing returns starts to come into play, that's not to say you can't still use the Type4 heads for applications over 200hp (as many have proven) it's just easier to achieve 400-500bhp with other heads.
So there you go Dan!!! An admission that when you're reaching for REALLY high hp the orginal Type4 heads can become an issue.
Now why don't you be a man an admit that outside of drag racing the Type4 engine is the winners choice? |
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Terry Cloyd
Banned
Joined: March 23, 2004
Posts: 2218
Location: Valley Center "SO CAL"
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Ron Roberts wrote: |
Easy Rider said:
I have not found any car that would truly chalenge me on a hill climb. Now I'm not saying that they are not out there, they are, it's just no one wants to pass me after I shut them down at 100mph going up a long climb.
You're on buddy! We can place a wager on it and who ever looses, Jake pays the bill!
Ron |
Ron your on the wrong hill Come to Glamis. Bring your type 4 and a jade bottle to help you up the hill. Larry Williams out of Pauter machine owned the fastest type 4 "ever" (not Jake). That was with a 471 GMC blower on top. That's 4 times 71 cubic ft. per min. to move thru the piece of sh*t heads. Don't foget your chair. Terry Sand Wars |
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oicdn
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
What does a Civic have to do with this VW web site?
You think .200 of a second is consistant??? I ran three time trials last Saturday night within .007 seconds of each other. |
He said 12's in a VW....I ran 12's in a CIVIC. I ran 12's in a CAVALIER...a CAVALIER FOR CHRISTS SAKE.....so I know what's "12's feel like"....
Running 12's in either of those cars is a HELL OF ALOT HARDER to do than doing them in a RWD, light curb weight bug.
And .200 is pretty damn consistent with street tires and FWD....
Back at ya....
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danimal
Banned
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| JamesT wrote: |
| If I had a dollar for every stock dualport head I have sitting in the barn with a bad crack between the valve seats and sparkplug thread, I'd probably be able to afford a decent pair of heads. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of type IV heads with dropped valve seats or cracks, but these are all stock heads. You may call stock type IV heads junk, but in reality, type I heads aren't much better. |
that's a nice post james, i agree with a lot of it, except for a couple of MAJOR flaws that i guess we can attribute to your lack of knowledge about type 1's:
1) type 1 heads do not drop seats, even when cracked, which is why you did not mention in your post... type 1 heads are far more reliable than type 4 heads, because when the type 4 seat drops, it can destroy the motor... so don't even try telling us that type 1 heads "aren't much better", that is a crap statement.
2) among other things, you did not list the cost to refurb type 4 heads in your list... a very major omission! but the cost of the kadron kit is not relevant.
poor moggy... months ago i posted those australian hillclimbing links (to the thread that got deleted), where a type 1 dominated the type 4's in the allmotor class... the fact that you deliberately didn't mention it now is a testament to your character, and it shows how far out of touch you are over there... flat 4 performance hardly begins and ends in england, lol.
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moggy
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2004
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately one thing that didn't make it across the pond (unles I'm mistaken) is a decent circuit racing championship for Beetles, in particular, one where you were allowed to choose your powerplant between Type4 or Type1. Now I think we can all agree that racing is all about choosing the combo's that WIN.....nothing else matters! (I know that's true for me...which is why I run a Type4 motor and am currently winning the aircooled class of the UK Short Course Off Road series)
In Europe we had mainly the Kafer Cup and SuperVW cup (and recently the Histo cup and Divinol but not restricted to Beetles). Time and time again the Type4 engined cars won, that's not to say that the occasional Type1 powered bug didn't win but it was in the minority. The majority of the field, that could, ran Type4 motors!
In a race that lasted more than 10SECONDS  the winners choose the Type4 engine over the Type1!! |
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JamesT
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2003
Posts: 605
Location: East Sooke, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| danimal wrote: |
nice post mike, let's hope that young daniel actually reads it and learns something... the only correction that i would make to your post is wrt to "only hearing great things" about raby motors... i have read stories about problems with jake raby engines, most significantly that mega high-$$$ type 4 that he sent to a guy in california who suffered thru a burned hole in the head just about the first time that he drove the motor... and it took him an unbelieveable 4 months to get warranty repair on the head??? i believe the thread is on speedsterowners.com, it's really ugly reading.
and then there is the failure of that raby type 4 at road atlanta, where it also burned a hole in the head before the first lap was over(?)... i'm just not impressed with type 4 motors, notice how these problems keep coming back to those type 4 junk heads.
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Dan, these are engines not meant to produce any significant power on either side. Heads will fail. Since they have to take the most significant range of temperature throughout their lives, they are one of the most likely failure point for an internal combustion engine, aircooled or otherwise. If I had a dollar for every stock dualport head I have sitting in the barn with a bad crack between the valve seats and sparkplug thread, I'd probably be able to afford a decent pair of heads. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of type IV heads with dropped valve seats or cracks, but these are all stock heads. You may call stock type IV heads junk, but in reality, type I heads aren't much better. Sure they can be made to flow better than type IV's, but they are still as prone to failure. No one runs stock heads when making performance engines, and aftermarket heads can still fail, the difference is that noone has yet to make an affordable aftermarket type IV head that can be made to flow effectively. I love type IV motors except for the heads, but I feel the gains in reliability and driveability outweigh whatever performance potential the heads take away.
I can finally give you real numbers on cost to build a 105bhp type IV motor for use in a type I now that I've got it together.
$100 - Junkyard 2.0L
$280 - Bearings, Piston Rings, Gaskets and seals. (Parts to rebuild engine)
$150 - Performance Cam shaft
$40 - Joe Cali's conversion manual
$110 - Header and Muffler
Free - heat exchangers without tin
$75 - Doghouse 36hp fanshroud
Free - second set of type IV and type 1 engine tin
$15 - Oil cooler adapter
$20 - Press in input shaft bushing for type IV flywheel
$100 - Kadron carb kit at swap meet
$80 - sheet metal, aluminum plate, and other hardware expences (fittings, hoses, bolts, ect.)
__________________________________________
$970 - total
That's right. I built a conversion Type IV for under $1000 Canadian. Minimal machining, some metal fabrication, and about 50 hours worth of work. Stock 1800 heads (I think I got lucky on that one, but we'll see how the valve seats last), flat top pistons, Dual Kadrons, Mild Cam, Stock vaccum/mechanical advance distributor, roughly 8.5:1 SCR and a 4 into 1 header with a single quiet pack. Never revs above 4500 and will accelerate up hills in fourth. I built a 1915 type I and it ended up costing several hundred more even with all the parts I already had and screaming deals at swap meets. The 1915 would rev higher and did feel a little punchier in second, but I spent some money on head work.
Someone could make a real fortune if they designed a built fairly inexpensive, good quality heads for a type IV that use type I exhaust location.
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Gary L.
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Just my $.02, my cousin stabbed a 2276 type 1 into his 914, and another friend stabbed a rotary into his 914. Why? I dunno....
Bottom line, it's your $.
How much would it cost to convert a TIV into your car, do you want to go up hills in 4th gear, do you want to play at the dragstrip, are you gonna do 90 mph for hours?
I'm a racer, CHT, mph, going 90 all day, not downshifting, 30 mpg, etc. means nothing to me. Heck, my 97 Thunderbird does all of that, so what? Personally, my car spends more time on a trailer than it does driving, but it's set up to run 11's (PRA S/G), and it's a Racecar. If I wanted to drive it all over the place, I'd look into a Type IV or a small displacement Type I with a turbo. They seem to be able to run all day long also. Different stokes.
Let the flames begin.... |
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danimal
Banned
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:36 am Post subject: |
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ron, lol! i'd rather see any kid of mine running a honda than a type 4
nice .007 lites, dave! i don't think that it will be fully appreciated out here, tho
or rather, nice .007 consistency, lol! what kind of lites were you cutting?
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danimal
Banned
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:29 am Post subject: |
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nice post mike, let's hope that young daniel actually reads it and learns something... the only correction that i would make to your post is wrt to "only hearing great things" about raby motors... i have read stories about problems with jake raby engines, most significantly that mega high-$$$ type 4 that he sent to a guy in california who suffered thru a burned hole in the head just about the first time that he drove the motor... and it took him an unbelieveable 4 months to get warranty repair on the head??? i believe the thread is on speedsterowners.com, it's really ugly reading.
and then there is the failure of that raby type 4 at road atlanta, where it also burned a hole in the head before the first lap was over(?)... i'm just not impressed with type 4 motors, notice how these problems keep coming back to those type 4 junk heads.
oicdn... lol!
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