Split Buyers Guide - What to look for

[aa390392]

This was an interesting read with a load of excellant advise and conversation.
Cheers Thomas
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getting grumpy & less tolerant!


55 ragtop
56 delux sedan
56 Kabriolet

[bgs]

Wonder what someone was thinking painting
it like that. Gun metal metallic grey with a
dark red stripe and bottom red base.

Don't know about that...
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Hmm, ruff.

[Speedy]

Just read Garys posts and just wanted to say thank you for the truthiness, it's not everyday people tell it like it is especially in a forum. Sad to hear about your friend, I hope he actually learned from that experience to not repeat it.

And to Envious, hopefully the car you want will pop up soon. Just make sure that you're ready.

Rick
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[someguy]

I bought my split a few years back and was embarassed to tell people what I paid for it. It was incomplete and fairly rough. But these days its original price is a bargain. I have had highs and lows since I bought it, selling off cars I really regretted selling to get some of the stuff I needed for the split but I am slowly plugging away finding all the stuff I need and am finally pretty close to having all the parts I need. Now its "JUST" body and paint and a couple little things. I will attest that finding a complete or as complete as possible split is usually going to save you money.

Everett was right about not going beyond your means, but sometimes you almost have to. Just make sure you can afford groceries at the end of the week.

To sum it up for a new split owner is take your time and dont expect to have a perfect car right away. If your not a crack dealer or independently wealthy all you have is patience, so use it. There still is good cars out there, you just might have to wait a while to find/complete it.

[sconord]

One warning from experience.

Even if you find a Split that is in "great structural shape" and does not need any body or metal work whatsoever-

(only needing interior work, seals and all rubber, wiring, cleaning, seat covers, carpet, brakes, tires, paint, minor engine work, heater boxes, muffler, little odds and ends)

and you get the car for $5000, you will still need at least another $5000-$10000 to get it back into "original" shape.


I have purchase two splits (in my gallery) and have easily $35000-$40,000 into them. And one is not completely done yet.

This is an expensive and time consuming addiction, err Hobby. It is not for the faint of heart.

But, I have to say, I would rather drive my old Split than drive a new Ferrari.
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[Brezelwerks]

Well I'm certainly known for rather long posts, but I seldom do it for extra entertainment though. I generally look at things in broader context and try to present alternative viewpoints usually for good reason.

In regards to this thread, I can't name who, but I had a friend this year, nicest guy in the world, who was big time depressed that he had no choice but to sell his early rare car because he had to payoff his huge credit card debt, he was in dire straits. He spent almost 7 years restoring what became an amazing car in the end, but it cost him dearly along the way, and he was completely attached to that car.

The guy got caught up in the excitement, overspent many times for parts since he never knew when he would find that rare part again, made alot of mistakes, got impatient to get it done, got taken more than I could count, and in the end he lost thousands on that car that will be taking him about 6 more years to payoff the remaining debt, and with no car to show for it. If what I write can prevent that happening to just one other person its worth taking the time to type.

Gary

[VDubMattStuart]

I'll second that John. I think the only thing intimidating about Brezelwerks post are the length. Nothing but very thurough sound advice. I shutter to think about parting out a Split like the one pictured, but he makes a good point. It could help more people than it would hurt.
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53 oval hardtop

[johnshenry]

I read the (original) post for the third time now and I see no implications or assumption directed at you. I see good, sound, experience-based advice.

Keep in mind that many times people can come across in text sounding arrogant and condescending when in fact they are not, nor is that their intention (ask me how I know).
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John Henry

'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab

[Brezelwerks]

For sure, "sound advice" was my intent from the start, as its been passed to me more than a few times in the past, and now just trying to pay it forward. Besides it wouldn't make much sense to discourage future split owners since (with some luck) they just might become long term customers someday. So hopefully the better the experience, the longer folks remain in the hobby.

The hard part of course here in a forum is trying to go beyond a sound "byte" to offer what is sound advice to think about. Sometimes that means taking the time to detail a few posts so one can be understood correctly.

With that said I generally agree that if you have to take out a loan to (especially) buy a fun car its not the right time. But, there are some gray areas here, especially when you are starting out, all based on if you just intend to do a decent restoration, which is a sound approach (and not really a show car). When I said the right one will come along, it will, but it often will mean you won't have the exact amount of cash on hand to buy it.

So, here is a reasonable often occurring scenario. Say you have $7K saved (normal average amount), and then a very nice driver split shows up for sale for $12K, sure it needs a few things, but its a nice example. Assuming you work for a living and have your priorities in order, its not much of a stretch (or risk) likely to borrow the $5K to get it. Why?

The alternative here, finding and buying the generally available (there is a reason why they are generally available) normal project split for $6K. Sure finding one grabs a hold of your emotions quick without question, but at what cost(s)? Remember it will cost you (in dollars) at least another $20K just to get it to a similar level (as the $12K split) maybe a year or say even (realistically) 4 years later (and thats a long difficult 4 years for a novice).

So, lets just take the worst case 4 year restoration process, and just easy dollar numbers. Would you rather borrow $5K now to get into a car you can drive and enjoy now (turn plenty of wrenches on tuning up, etc.) and cover safely with your monthly expenses, OR are going to spend $5K+ a year (for 4 years each year) on all kinds of stuff right and wrong, using cash & credit cards (at 3X the finance charge)? Plus there are many other ways to bleed out in this alternative as well as I was being somewhat facicious about adding cell phone minutes, etc., but believe me things add up that you never anticipate from all angles, especially on these early cars. Also don't forget the endless hours you don't get paid for on such a project, as said earlier, a car like this is a life changing event period, and it will affect your family life trust me, we joke about it, but its reality.

My main point is from the start, and its the bigger problem, I can count on many fingers and toes how many more times project cars get abandoned, folks run out of initiative, motivation, cash, etc., and the car get passed around again and again usually as is with few improvements (with just more decay usually), plus (worse) the seller ends up losing/eating at least $2K, a far cry from where they wanted to go, ouch, ouch, ouch. Not exactly building up the future customer base for guys like me eh?

Therefore, with my earliest suggestion, if you buy the project split and can make money parting it out, do it, that way you are just that much closer to buying the typical $12K split that comes along, do that a few times with other things, parts, etc, and you'll be learning along the way, in the hobby making contacts etc., and then not needing to take out any loan to get that 12K car you want maybe only a year or two later. Plus remember when you part out a car like this you help 4 other stuck project splits get finished, a good thing, a win-win.

Also remember, when you buy a split for $12K, it often means someday you can either resell it for close to what you paid, or better yet its value only increases, since you've likely made a few affordable improvements along the way. So, if you took that loan for $5K to buy it, at least when/if you need to sell it, you can easily cover any loan amount left, lowest risk possible.

Anyways, plenty of gray areas here, using some logic, taking your time, planning a bit, being smart, and staying in the hobby, paying it forward, etc., you'll have greater successes in your quest.

Gary

[Envious]

[Envious]

[VDubMattStuart]

[EverettB]

I would not recommend getting a loan for a hobby or "toy" car. If you can't afford the purchase price, you can't afford to own the car, maintain it, locate and purchase the necessary or missing parts, and so on.
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[Brezelwerks]

Just sharing some perspective coming from enough years of observing dozens of folks (and myself), based on many joyful and painful lessons learned dealing with and restoring these specific cars. Whether anyone is qualified financially or technically are issues the buyer will have to contend with sooner or later on their own, which again depends on what the goals are for the car. However please know I make these points knowing full well they have nothing to do with the quality of the person (potential buyer) whatsoever.

Its great folks have the passion for owning these early cars, its important to the growth and survival of the hobby. My intent here was to go a bit deeper than the usual responses to fairly generic "what do you think" questions, to try to set some realistic expectations, it helps folks perhaps to separate some of the emotions from the logic, enables perhaps some better planning, and hopefully a more desirable outcome as a result.

A similar situation is when folks say to me they want to start investing money and buy stocks, and they ask me about one stock they like for one reason and say "what do you think?" Rather than saying its just a good company, or a good stock which is easy to do, thats just a lazy dangerous response. There are many factors to consider fraught with risks. I'm more concerned first if the person knows anything about buying stocks, about the company, the product, the competition, the direction of the markets in general, and knowing they know when to buy and when to sell. If folks don't have a semblance of some of these areas, its hard for me to offer them real guidance, but at least I'm going to set some expectations for them to think about next, to me thats the right thing to do first, as I would like to see folks have a successful outcome.

These specific early cars will have a huge impact on your life in many ways most never know until they own one. As such, pound for pound, all things considered, if one can swing it, the proven wiser move is to buy a car thats done or mostly done, but one you can get in and drive today, just tinker with, learn about over time, and enjoy.

Gary

[Envious]

[Wiggy]

I think Gary was trying to be helpful.
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Kevin "Wiggy"

My 58 Ghia Vert

My 51 Split 11G

My 57 Deluxe

My 56 Oval

[Envious]

[eh0s]

[Envious]

Brezelwerks,

I appreciate your opinions on this. The reality is though, there are no qualifications to owning these or any other car. I don't need to fill out an application, submit full financial disclosure, or declare my intentions to anyone. All I have to do is write the cheque to cover the purchase and transfer the ownership. What I do with it after that is up to me whether others approve or not. It's none of their business really.

Your post, whether it was your intention or not, came off as "step aside junior and let someone who knows what their doing build you a car so we can make sure it's done correctly"

I would never let any of my cars get in the way of my wife or family. My cars, along with my boats and motorcycles, are toys. I enjoy my time driving them, working on them, and researching them. If I ever thought for a moment my hobbies were eating into family resources, they'd be gone by the end of the week.

When I started this thread, I wasn't looking for anyone's approval, I was just hoping people would pass along some advice about what to look and what to avoid based on their experiences with these cars. As a younger collector, I know I have a lot to learn. My only qualification for owning a split window beetle is my passion for driving and restoring these cars.
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71 Type 1302 Custom
64 Type 151
63 Type 117 L469 Anthracite
64 Type 361 L575 Nutria
64 Porsche 356c
56 Type 113 L227 Strato Silver
52 BSA C11G
59 Heilite Single Wheel Camping Trailer
56 Allstate Single Wheel
84 Vanagon Westfalia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=388225

[Brezelwerks]

While I've got many opinions in this area than I could possibly cover here, there are some basic questions to ask first in these situations. Real questions first because there are just too many cars like this that tend to stay that way for years if not decades, they get passed around and around and get this bad reputation along the way (happens here all the time), all were bought with good intentions of course but unless there are funds, resources, connections, etc., etc., a car like this usually stays that way, and the person who wanted one to begin with often ends up too discouraged to own a split ever, have seen it happen countless times, and this is what I'd like to help prevent.

Next, the question is what do you really want in and (to do) with finding a split first, whats the goal? Something like this frankensplit is going to take some serious time and cash to make it anywhere near accurate. What usually happens are dozens of compromises along the way just to get the car on the road and driveable if and when you can find parts, and thousands and thousands of dollars later you end up with the "classic driver" at best (if its your first split), and worse you now are in a deeper cash hole than you started with. Also don't forget first before you do this to add at least 500 minutes a month to your cell phone and make sure you upgrade to a nice broadband connection.

Now, while I hate to say it since it sounds discouraging, many people want to own a split, but few have the funds and resources to achieve what they want or visualize having, at least in the time frame they are imagining. Its understandable, many of us started out this way, and its never easy nomatter how much cash you have, and it can take years to get there, but eventually somewhere down what is usually a longer road than you want, you get a decent car you are proud to own.

So, if the goal is to own an average split, the question is then really how to do go about it, by rescuing barn finds? Well, if you have your own shop, serious tools to do most of your own work, the space, the knowledge, skills, local resources, etc., and you have a nice lean spending budget of about $20K to spend over a few years, then go for it. But the only folks that I know that mostly succeed doing it this way are the folks that have done at least one early car like this before and they are absolutely convinced (including their wife or girlfriend) they can and will love every minute of doing it again period.

So, if thats not at least 80% of who you are, its best to just add years to your life and your marriage and buy a decent relatively accurate split that you can drive this summer for $12-15K, even if you have to take a $10K loan to pay for it, you'll still save thousands, plus you'll likely stay married (which will also save you even more thousands if not 10's of thousands). After all is said and done, just getting one done from someone who has already put the time in, and has enjoyed for the time they wanted, and is now passing it along to you, by far, and I mean really far, is the way to go. If you want to make the car "yours", buy a few accessories and decorate, and voila its "yours".

Therefore, if your're not in a rush, and while people always say things like "don't part it out", if you want a split, and you stumble on something like this meantime out in the backwoods where you live, and you have a nice big space on your front lawn that you are dying to decorate, buy this one and play Martha Stewart, its an opportunity to make money to go and get what you really want. So just part the damn thing out like all the other shops and restorers have been doing for years and make money on the deal. Plus you help to make other sad split project owners by selling them the parts they need and have been looking for forever. Haste makes waste, use wisdom to your advantage, the "long view" as the Chinese say, save your money during all this time and wait for the right one to come along and it will, it always does.

Gary