Bay vs. Vanagon - which is more reliable?

[morymob]

Owned both bay and Vanagons(5). My opinion is that most wbx owners panicked when corrosion was on heads and jumped on new ones that were good for many tho miles.Head seals are weak but will last yrs if done properly and fi-sys on all has been as good as it gets, on mine anyway. The bay treated me well but still had a major going over when bought, so this equals out. WBX comfort is much better, MUCH quiter, don't have to turn off radio above 50mph. I still like the bay look 4 it's a period well remembered. Maint on both and if u do own work determines cost of anything u own, newer ones(brand x's) suck tho.Most things have their 'trashers' on here so read and omit as needed, my 2-cts.

[ddwbeagles]

I have both, a 78 Bay and an 86 Vanagon. I would change the question a little. I would ask, which one is easier to self maintain? In that arena, I say the older air cooled buses, but decent parts are becoming harder and harder to find. As others have mentioned, the cooling system on the Vanagons is about as complex as a german engineer could design and a bit of a pain, but new engines and alternate engines abound for this era vehicle. Tough choice.
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David W - from Chesterfield, VA / Jefferson SD / Stephens City, VA in that order.

71 Ghia Coupe autostick
78 Westy
86 Vanagon Weekender

[GeorgeO.]

I have had a 1987 Wolfsburg Edition Tin Top Weekender, and a 1968 and 1973 Baywindow westfalias. While I love the ride of the Vanagon, the comfort of the bed and seating arrangement. The problem with the Vanagon was that the cooling system was over engineered. You have more hoses and lines that have a tendency to fail. I got caught 62 miles from my house on a late Sunday nite after work and I had to leave my car in a lot for the night hoping it would not get towed. I have never had any problems with my 68 and my 73. I don't drive fast so I don't have to worry about any coolant lines bursting on me. I will say this much, if I had installed a hose kit from Go-Westy, I'm sure I would not have had the cooling problem with the Vanagon.

[GeorgeO.]

[Tram]

[nemobuscaptain]

[Tram]

This was also covered in the Vanagon forum not too long ago:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=154649&highlight=bay+vanagon

Personally, I've had great luck with watercooled Vanagons. You just have to know what to expect, and if you do the heads, do 'em right. Get NEW heads, use the VW gasket set with the proper sealers, flush the cooling system, and use the approved Autobahn coolant mixed with distilled water. Add a ground from the engine to body on BOTH heads, as what eats the heads is electrolysis. VW had a bulletin out on that some years ago. Do it right, and you'll only do it once. I've seen OE bottom ends exceed 300K miles with proper maintenance.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.

[mikegoode]

I have heard about the head probs with Vanagons. When I bought my one owner 88 Wolfsburg Vanagon, it was from a VW dealer and it had just under 100K on the clock, so I had the heads done at the dealer before I even picked it up. It cost about $1,000. I put another 40K on it with no engine probs. People complain about the head gasket issues, but they are known tohappen every 100K or so. If one has to invest $1,000 for those every 100K its not really that bad. Most OHC cars will require 2 timing belt jobs in that time, and the price for two of those is pretty close to one Vanagon head gasket job. The probs I had with my Vanagon included a starter, power window motor, central locking system problem, power steering pump, water pump, a/c hose, front heater blower fan. I just think I got mine at the end of a wear cycle. I replaced all that stuff so its probably a very reliable truck for its current owner.

[josh]

Want a clue as to the reliability of a watercooled vanagon engine?

Google 'vanagon engine'. Most of the hits are for engine conversions. A-lot of vanagon owners would rather swap in another engine than pull the heads off the waterboxer again.

I've got nothing against watercooled engines but VW based this watercooled engine on their aircooled designs. The heads and head studs are famous for corroding and the head gaskets are notorious for springing leaks.
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[Shagg]

The most important point to consider is...a vehicle, of any kind, is a mechanical being. All of them will break, as all mechanical things do.My opinion is this...it matters not What kind of vehicle...but WHAT kind of LIFE the vehicle has had. If it has been maintained regularly, its usually a better choice than one thats been through 20 people...no matter what make it is.
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"no matter where you go, there you are.."

[pyrOman]

[TheBeast]

I have to somewhat disagree on the thinner paint at least on the earlier Vanagons. I have over 300k on my Vanagon and the paint couldn't have held up any better- maybe Vw cheapened the later vanagons or maybe the metallics are to blame, but my solid butter-yellow Vanagon sure polishes very nicely.

I had an '85 passenger Vanagon with gold metallic, that paint never polished as nicely- although '85 is year w/ 'forged a-arms' where the '84 has the stamped welded ones. The sliding door release was improved in '85 as well- and door actually feels much lighter- so maybe there was some cost recovery to be made.
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1963 Anthracite Beetle 1776 w/ 34pict
1979 Bus Westfalia- Sage green w/ fancy stripes
1978 Bus - Sunroof model
1970 Beetle Convertible
1982 Rabbit Pick-up
1984 Vanagon Westfalia

[nemobuscaptain]

[Amskeptic]

That is actually an easy question to answer if we are specific about the reliability question only. The Bay is more reliable by a wide margin when it comes to its simpler construction like the electrical system, shift linkage, steering, body hardware, air-cooling vs watercooling.
The Vanagon is more reliable where engineering has advanced without being too badly cheaped down, such as ignition system, Digifant injection, hydraulic clutch linkage (before it develops a leak), drive axles/boots (I found they held up perfectly for 100,000 miles with my '89 Vanagon GL) and, with the later Vanagons with forged lower a-arms, the front suspension can be as reliable as the torsion bar front suspension in the bays as long as you don't off-road with the same abandon as you can with a Bay. But my Vanagon <n-i-g-g-l-e-d> me with electronic idle stabilizer failures, a fuel tank vent recovery recall, thin paint, an AC discharge, incurable bucking for 40,000 miles until the dealer told me the Continental tires were to blame (?) (they were, too), a cheap plastic dash binnacle and other cheap plastic fitments, the chrome wiped off the emblems after six car washes, the bay window bus is still good after countless washes over the past 27 years.

Beyond just reliability question, the Bay definitely feels way more up to the task of getting its guts banged up off-road, the Vanagon feels more polished on the highway. I would not have even bothered driving across the country in the sub-zero cold-snap/blizzard of '91 with a Bay. . . the Vanagon passed with flying colors. Vanagon wins on active and passive safety.
Colin
(and when forced to choose, I kept the Bay with no regrets)
(amazing what happened when I typed "n-i-g-g-l-e-d," a real word that means to annoy with innumerable trifles. . . it translated to "attractive and successful African American" by the time it appeared. . . . . if you are going to be PC, how about doing it accurately )
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www.itinerant-air-cooled.com
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[nemobuscaptain]

No vanagon for me. Heads, cooling system etc are too fragile and the cost for replacement parts are in the BMW/Mercedes/Porsche zipcode. A set of coolant hoses is $500 or more!!!! The FI is archaic. The 1.9 bottom end is rather robust however. The 2.1 like to throw rods threw the case. Heads on my 1600 (or any aircooled VW) are fragile also, but I can fix them with a 17, 15 and 13mm wrench and a floor jack for $200. A head gasket is a big job on a vanagon because the problem always includes heads due to corrosion and is very expensive. (The myth that the "right coolant" precludes the head gasket problem is false. My last 85 had nothing but VW coolant and went through three head gaskets in 140k miles. Other vanagon list guys had similar experiences.)

However, I agree that a well maintained vanagon may be better than a thrashed bus... and vice versa. Either way, you need to not get impatient and make sure you're getting a good VW. Thrashed VW's are only a bargain if you can do all the work yourself. And the repairs always cost 2-3 as much as you estimate before getting into the jobs.

Talk to your local mechanic and get his opinion and price quotes.

No vanagon for me--unless it has a veggie burning TD swapped in)
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Ohio Valley Tribe, Full Moon Bus Club https://www.facebook.com/groups/294422277314227/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/FullMoonBusClub

RIP Bob Hoover https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=427791
Hoover Sermons: https://www.vwsage.com/images/vwsage/Bob%20Hoovers%20Sermons.pdf

[Baja Uber Alles]

[quote="steponmebbbboom
Sounds to me then like you would be happiest with a vintage Japanese automobile.[/quote]

That would make for some cramped camping!

[tobewonekanobe]

After I pulled over to a wide spot to do a little inspection on the 78 I was looking(planning) on buying, I called my fifty+ year old father to get his thoughts on a few of the visual Q & A I would have. He had lived through a few vw's and spent bit of time as a bike mechanic giving him a little bit of a opinion.

"He said live by one rule for aircooled treasures
keep the oil full and the engine clean and the rest will fall in place"

not a exact science but its a start.
just my opinion but if you have the desire it will run reliably, I wasn't mechanically inclined but I get the job done(sorta!)
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I will take "Victims of the All Mighty Sarlacc" for $800 Alex!
1978 Riviera "Earl Da Pearl"

[pyrOman]

I'd have nothing that would have to be smogged. I also will not work on a square box either. Tried it once, didn't like it. I believe the parts ain't cheap or easy to find.

If you rather pay a mechanic to take care of your vehicle, go with it. If you rather do most of the work yourself, get a bus.

You asked for opinions, you got 'em!
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Some people are so busy being clever they don't have time enough to be wise.

[Bub]

Maybe what he should be asking is which one will be a bigger headache and more expensive / harder to fix WHEN something breaks.
SOMEthing will break. Shit happens. You might get lucky: A friend of mine bought a 91' Vanagon from another friend of mine for $1600. I cringed and said I wasn't responsible, fearing the worst. The thing had no regular maintanence or records. Kind of worn, but together and running. Almost 3 years later and the thing still runs perfect. A little elbow grease and some accessories (17" Cups, Euro valence, etc) and he gets "wows!" everywhere he goes.
Anyway, if you're interested in "being your own mechanic", and modern-like comfort and quiet isn't #1 Priority, get a Bay window.
If you side a little more with nostalgia, and can put up with some 'quirks' and are willing to learn and skin your knuckles once in a while, get a bay window.
Otherwise, get the H20-Vanagon. They're just as useful, have similar performance, a little more modern feel to them, but most will agree they dont have quite the personality of an older bus.
Bob O
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[Gary]

Why do I get the feeling that no matter how the question is answered, this person posing the question will not be happy?

ANY properly maintained vehicle, regardless of age, will be more relliable than a vehicle that is NOT properly maintained.

In another 2 years, I would be willing to put my 2002 Cavalier against any 2004 or newer Cavalier because I am a stickler for maintenance. My car has never let me down yet. The same holds true to a Bay vs Vanagon scenario. There are some people's Bays here that are lucky to make it across town, while others can make it across the United States and back again. Go into the Vanagon forum and the same holds true.

Figure out which style you prefer and go from there.
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West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)