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VWNate
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Joined: October 04, 2016
Posts: 443
Location: Sunny So. Cal.
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 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:54 pm Post subject: Engine Stand |
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BTW : you need two 10MM 1.25MM fasteners on that engine support or you're going to have a terrible day in due time .
Are those stock twin port cylinder heads ? . they have clearly been re welded once, this cracking is endemic / normal .
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-Nate
One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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VWNate
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Joined: October 04, 2016
Posts: 443
Location: Sunny So. Cal.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:50 pm Post subject: Engine Video |
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O.K., first thing I hate to tell you but those are thin wall cylinders My son used a set to very good effect indeed, he installed "super cool" under cylinder sheet metal .
The comment was about the CASTING and clearly it's a minor issue here, I don't think I'd bother cleaning it up as more metal in the breeze means cooler running....
Listening to you reminds me of my first VW engine teardown and overhaul....
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-Nate
One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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onehappykombi
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Joined: March 26, 2017
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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| txoval wrote: |
Always brave to post a video.
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I made an entire playlist with my 1st engine build, hoping to be informative for others who can learn from my rights and wrongs
Link
First start video is coming live next week or so !
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'56 Early Split & '69 Early Bay
Overlanding the USA
Camper special engine build |
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VWNate
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Joined: October 04, 2016
Posts: 443
Location: Sunny So. Cal.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:28 am Post subject: Helping Hands |
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Very much appreciate all the detailed answers .
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-Nate
One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23248
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| Acetone |
Mmmmm...yes and no. It depends on what you are cleaning off of the case.
Acetone is a very strong solvent but it does not do well on certain things. It cannot dissolve certain greases cleanly….completely. I will explain why that’s an issue shortly.
It’s very specific chemistry wise. For instance, for cleaning up epoxy adhesives its perfect. The problem is not the oil in the grease. Acetone will dissolve most oils. It’s the base materials that it cannot dissolve and some of the additives that it may not get out because it flashes off so quickly.
Also, if there are dried sealants or adhesives...RTV's...acetone will not work well on them.
However, I do use a lot of acetone. If you know the two case halves are already very clean and all debris are gone and you just want to remove any skin oils or basic motor before applying sealant....then yes...acetone works very well for that.
Where it also does not work well is getting embedded stuff out of fine kerfs and cracks, usually because that kind of crud is made up of more than one material. I use something stronger when I have stuff like that....like lacquer thinner or MEK.
This is a really good thread. Lots of good information.
As Vanapplebomb notes...if you can dress the case halves with an stone to simply smooth the surfaces, you will seal better.
The big issue is it depends on what you are sealing with and relying on acetone only.
If you had any oils or greases that had sulfur in them….gear oil…assembly lubes….clean the surfaces with something like a mineral spirit like xylene. Or use MEK or lacquer thinner. Or even a strong detergent with a caustic and water and then dry. After that, acetone is perfect for the last wash up right before application of sealant. Methanol is good too.
Sulfur, even very small amounts of residual sulfur prevent virtually all moisture cured RTV’s from curing properly. In areas where gear oil is in heavy use….even too much in the air can spoil the cure.
There are too many times when some people swear that RTV just does not hold up in certain applications because it leaked. Too many of those times, when you inspect while tearing the equipment or engine down you find that the RTV is not cured in certain places. Still kind of gooey. Sulfur contamination usually.
The other issue with RTV failure on something like a case joint or flange is what we have talked about here at other times. Getting it applied thin enough.
Most RTV’s are very high density. Most are designed as “gasket makers” or “gap fillers”. When you apply it to a machined joint and do not start out thin enough….as the joint starts to close….and it starts squeezing the RTV along both surfaces, yes…some will squeeze out….but the big issue is that as the RTV squeezes along the surfaces and the gap is closing, the friction and surface tension increase exponentially. This increases the density of the RTV.
Eventually the already high density RTV starts to act like a solid and will lock up. The RTV layer will only get so thin if there is too much volume to start with.
As Modok noted I think…it can prop the two surfaces apart, And, as I noted In my last post….the thicker inner layer of RTV will be susceptible to tearing is there is any pressure operating on it.
You really only want the handful of microns needed….to fill the machining imperfections between the case halves. As Modok has said before....yes...on a good joint you can probably seal the case with ketchup if its properly applied. Ray |
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
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Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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I use acetone too. Good solvent.
Before that, stone the surfaces with either a machinist stone or a lapping plate. Knock all the high spots down so the cases mate nice and even all the way around. Then clean the cases really well.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 4124
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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| Acetone |
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VWNate
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2016
Posts: 443
Location: Sunny So. Cal.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 7:58 am Post subject: CLEANING Case Halves |
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THANK YOU BOTH .
I too know and love Hylomar but I'd never thought of using it there .
What is the current thinking of cleaning the mating surfaces ? .
TIA,
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-Nate
One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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Dougy Dee
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Joined: August 21, 2004
Posts: 1764
Location: Niagara Region, CANADA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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YAY! Another Motoseal fan! I've been preaching thaat gospel for about 12 years now...  |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23248
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
At the time when I used 574 or 518 on the main saddles I did not use any sealant on the main bearing through bolts (type 4). I never cared for (and still don’t) trying to seal straight threads, bolt heads, washers, etc. Thread lockers work well for sealing straight threads, but I still don’t like trying to seal bolt heads, washers, etc.
As for the switch to RTV, I gave it a go several years back, and really liked it. It is transferred from glass to the case with an ink roller, super thin. I actually let it fully cure before assembly. I actually built up a motor with that technique, realized I forgot the cam plug, took it apart a week later, and reassembled with the cam plug. I never reapplied the sealant. The case halves don’t bond together because the RTV is fully cured before assembly, so you can separate them and slap them back together. How many times? I don’t know. I do know it can be done at least once because after 7 years, still no leaks anywhere. |
Is there a link to Ray’s ink roller technique here somewhere?
Vaguely remember seeing this somewhere….  |
Sorry I did not see this 7 months ago....
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
By the way, I did not invent this method. I have used it and it is spec'd....or versions of it...for a wide range of industrial equipment sealing in factories I have been in and out of for years.
When dealing with machined surface or flange seals, engineers have known for eons that they operate best when the sealant or adhesive is as thin as possible.
We are not talking about "gasket maker" here or large gap filling. That is a different animal. We are talking about sealing a pair of mated machined surfaces.
All you should be filling with this type of seal are shallow machine marks and fine dents, scratches or imperfections that cannot be removed.
A sealing film like this is a single homogenous layer.....until it gets too thick. Then it should be thought of or visualized as THREE distinct layers....even though its one distinct complete layer of adhesive/RTV.
The two outside layers are where the adhesive/RTV is against the metal surfaces that the adhesive or RTV is attached to (in our application its each side of the engine case).
If the surfaces are very clean and the adhesive/RTV was applied carefully and uniformly....those outer "layers" are pretty bulletproof. They will not seperate from each other. The adhesive/RTV is now essentially a metal backed elastomer layer.
Once its cured....if its thin enough....its very hard to discern where the outer metal backed layers end and the middle layer begins. This is when adhesive and RTV are at their strongest....film strength wise.
When the RTV film gets too thick.... the third layer....the inner thickness of RTV between the two "metal backed" outer layers will have a totally different hardness or durometer.
It is also free to FLEX. its UNSUPPORTED.
Depending on the hardness or durometer of the RTV or adhesive....you need to keep it down under about 0.0005" to 0.001" maximum layer thickness or the RTV layer can tear through the middle third layer and leak.
If you are going to use actual RTV...I recommend the roller method. Each RTV type has a different viscosity and shear point. The roller will shear it down to the minimum film thickness the RTV can produce. And, softer rollers make a thicker film and harder rollers make a thinner film.
Many years ago I had used only a few times on other peoples equipment...sealants like Yamabond (solvent based). I did not like them back then only because they were a mess, dried too quickly etc.
I have kind of rediscovered that sealant type over the past two years. I like the Permatex Motoseal for sealing machined joints. Its also fuel and oil proof.
If you understand why making RTV 0.0005" thick makes a better seal and thats what you are trying to do....solvent based sealants like Motoseal and Yamabond can help do that easier.
They are essentially a solvent based RTV. They are about 60% solvent. So if you can spread them on or even roll them on...right at 0.001"....once the solvent flashes off they will be right around 0.0004" to 0.0005" thick. Ray |
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VWNate
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Joined: October 04, 2016
Posts: 443
Location: Sunny So. Cal.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:01 am Post subject: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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Just found this helpful thread, thanx you Sir .
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-Nate
One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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txoval
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Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3849
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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Always brave to post a video.
Like Alstrup has said in previous posts…apply the sealant to the other case half without the studs sticking out…so much easier
That was also too much aviation…it will be on the bearings if you were to take the case apart, especially the flywheel side cam bearing. I’ve seen it first hand
Also, please don’t rotate your crank like that and have the rod smack the cylinder openings…I promise you there are dings in the sealing surface now |
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onehappykombi
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7783
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
At the time when I used 574 or 518 on the main saddles I did not use any sealant on the main bearing through bolts (type 4). I never cared for (and still don’t) trying to seal straight threads, bolt heads, washers, etc. Thread lockers work well for sealing straight threads, but I still don’t like trying to seal bolt heads, washers, etc.
As for the switch to RTV, I gave it a go several years back, and really liked it. It is transferred from glass to the case with an ink roller, super thin. I actually let it fully cure before assembly. I actually built up a motor with that technique, realized I forgot the cam plug, took it apart a week later, and reassembled with the cam plug. I never reapplied the sealant. The case halves don’t bond together because the RTV is fully cured before assembly, so you can separate them and slap them back together. How many times? I don’t know. I do know it can be done at least once because after 7 years, still no leaks anywhere. |
Is there a link to Ray’s ink roller technique here somewhere?
Vaguely remember seeing this somewhere….
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There is no such thing as patina.
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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In the past I used Curil K2 and it weeped a tiny bit after 2500 miles. I used Loctite 574 and it weeped a little too. This time I used Threebond 1184. It seems like a really solid sealer, and paints on well. I used a little Loctite 574 on the case webs where the six bolts come thru. The cases are always well prepped before applying sealer. Kuril is probably the easiest to clean up with a little acetone.
While Threebond 1184 is highly recommended, it is good from-40C to 150C (-40F to 302F) then it starts to slowly lose strength. That is about the max one should ever let the oil get to on its worst day just before the fried eggs burn  I'll let everyone know how it goes. I've never found anything that didn't weep a little after awhile. Used to use Gasgacinch - the old formula and it was good for about 15,000 miles on my t1 engines.
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modok
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Posts: 27716
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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| rayjay wrote: |
| Only somewhat relevant to case sealing.... Project Farm on YT recently did a silicone sealant comparison test. |
YEAH that was very good especially how the % cured in deep gaps really varied. |
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modok
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Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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On the type-1 whatever it was, it allowed the case halves to come together all the way.
I "think" it was a non-hardeneing sealant, or at least THAT kind of sealant suits the design best.
Keep in mind every little thing the factory did was not always super smart, you know, they had great ideas and they had bad ideas. Like the sealing nuts that didn't work, what the heck, why not acorn nuts.... they had them on the oil plate LOL.
The type-4 is a bit different and so is a WBX, the late WBX bearings would be virtually fully seated right at assembly so maybe that one you would use the loctite acrilic anerobic sealant.
Not just VW but many kinds of engines that have a rear bearing cap and main seal as one piece and it has the same kind of issues and for sure the best design is just not to design it that way at all, make the seal holder separate.
That way the bearing cap can flex and move around all it wants it won't disturb the seal and the sealant won't disturb the bearing cap seating.
Ray Greenwood thin film method very neat way to do it but around the main seal and cam plug and the oil pump is just terrible design and it does not SOLVE the problem fully, still requires absolute precision fits to work that only the German designers would dare to THINK is possible.
But IMO silicone in a groove is actually a good solution to that type of problem. So PERSONALLY that's what I will be experimenting with as I get the opportunity. Like cutting a groove between the main seal and the cam plug groove, and the loctite manual does give some good hints and ideas on that including 30 degree ramp shape, actually 30 degree chamfer might make it work better with non hardeneing sealant too.
But that IS an experiment, so, I may change my mind in five years. Have before. One time thought it was smart to use different kinds of sealant on different parts of the case split, well.... didn't work out. So, no more of that. |
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rayjay
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Posts: 1648
Location: Buford GA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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| Only somewhat relevant to case sealing.... Project Farm on YT recently did a silicone sealant comparison test. I had discovered Mopar black back in the mid 80s when I worked at a Dodge dealer. In the PF tests it came in a close second iirc and first when cost was factored in. I would not use it between the case halfs but will use it at the cyl bases and other areas where silicone sealant is appropriate |
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chrisflstf
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Nitramrebrab72
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Joined: November 10, 2018
Posts: 913
Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing case and cylinders? |
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| jpaull wrote: |
My first stroker that i got from someone else ruined a crank and rod bearings/journals cause someone used sealant there and the just a little sealant came out and plugged a oil passage. Is it really worth it?
Seems like trying to seal a problem that doesn't exist. |
Any Loctite 574 not enclosed in a flange will not harden and is designed to be flushed away by engine oil on the first engine start, then out of the engine totally on it's first engine oil change. Any silicone sealant can stick clog and kill brand new engines, another reason I guess Porsche chose Loctite574 as one of their case flange sealants. |
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