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vbrad26
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 71
Location: FL
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 Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:09 am Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| slayer61 wrote: |
Sorry. My bad  Seems the type 3 trailing arms and type 1 trailing arms are different in design. From earlier in this thread
they type 1 ball joints are facing each-other not the same direction as a type 3. Once again, sorry.  |
Lol no worries! Nothing would surprise me at this point.
Not usually a fan of inheriting someone else's project.
Especially on a car I am totally unfamiliar with!
I have NO idea what should be what!
I still have not had time to mess with it anymore.
I am going to try everything I have read until something works.
Some people say bolt up the lower joint first. Others say top.
Some say remove the top bolt from the ball joints instead of the lower bolts...I don't know.
Guess I'm just going to throw the kitchen sink at it and see what will work....
I think I am going to bolt the upper joint in and then with the floor jack, jack the whole assembly up so i can get the lower ball joint in.
It is really the upper arm that seems to be the trouble maker, at least in my case.
I was watching a video where a guy needed a spring compressor (or something) because he needed to bring the arms closer together, but I actually need the arms further apart! |
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slayer61
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2021
Posts: 1384
Location: TX
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:12 am Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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Sorry. My bad Seems the type 3 trailing arms and type 1 trailing arms are different in design. From earlier in this thread
they type 1 ball joints are facing each-other not the same direction as a type 3. Once again, sorry.
_________________
| Cusser wrote: |
... Most folks are idiots when it deals with electrical !!! |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
3/4 race cam? What's missing, one of the lobes?  |
Paul
'68 Manx clone... Sears??
RLR/Strange brakes
2276 built on AS21 case
W-125 w/ GB 1.25:1 rockers
Mahle forged pistons
CB 4340 crank
CB H beam rods
deep sump
45 DCOE
Garrett turbo
Tim's stage II turbo heads
MSD Box and distributor
Car Craft turbo header |
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vbrad26
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 71
Location: FL
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:28 am Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| slayer61 wrote: |
You realize that the bottom one is on up-side-down, right?  |
No? The bottom what...? |
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slayer61
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2021
Posts: 1384
Location: TX
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:17 am Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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You realize that the bottom one is on up-side-down, right?
_________________
| Cusser wrote: |
... Most folks are idiots when it deals with electrical !!! |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
3/4 race cam? What's missing, one of the lobes? |
Paul
'68 Manx clone... Sears??
RLR/Strange brakes
2276 built on AS21 case
W-125 w/ GB 1.25:1 rockers
Mahle forged pistons
CB 4340 crank
CB H beam rods
deep sump
45 DCOE
Garrett turbo
Tim's stage II turbo heads
MSD Box and distributor
Car Craft turbo header |
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vbrad26
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 71
Location: FL
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| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:58 am Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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I’m going to start by posting here but may post elsewhere. Fair warning.
Anyway I have stopped here for the day…
I have lowered it one inner spline from where it was. However the car had already been messed with before I got it.
But it seems as I’m really going to have to fight the arms to get the joints back in. Any tips? I read a bunch in the last week leading up to this but I’d appreciate any tips while I keep looking. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23596
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:24 am Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| Steve Westall wrote: |
| If you lower the Type 3 by suspension alone is it important to use a shorter shock? |
It really depends on how low you go. According to Brian Fye, if you go more than 3 splines you need to use short shocks. At 3 splines you can still use stock shocks. But, I've found that going 2 splines (inner or outer) you can use stock shocks without any issues, as it puts most of the travel in the middle of the shock stroke. That's not saying you can't use short shocks at 2 splines, because you can.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Steve Westall
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 2
Location: Olympia, Wa.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| If you lower the Type 3 by suspension alone is it important to use a shorter shock? |
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OhHerrooo
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2010
Posts: 1291
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| Take the nut off the ball joint, seat the bottom in the spindle and then replace the top nut on the ball joint. |
Did this, worked great. Front is down 3 inner splines with empi lowered linkpin oil shocks. Still have yet to do the rear.
_________________
'67 Squareback
'69 Squareback
'68 Westfalia
'68 Squareback
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's
www.evenkeelsurfshapes.com |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4513
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| Take the nut off the ball joint, seat the bottom in the spindle and then replace the top nut on the ball joint. |
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OhHerrooo
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2010
Posts: 1291
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| OhHerrooo wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
| OhHerrooo wrote: |
| Nope, no pickle fork. Yeah I think it’s binding. Just not sure how to get it corrected. |
if you have a chisel - stick it into the slot and tap it to separate the metal slightly - the ball joint will come out. It's 'bent' closed by the bolt by design. |
Yep I got it and re-indexed the arm. Getting the ball joint stud back in to the lower arm is proving to be a real PITA. Any tips? I've never done the front of a car.
I've cleaned the bore but will give it another go in the AM. I'll shoot some oil in to the bore to make sure the ball joint stud slides in easily (it was fairly rusty in there). |
Tap a screw driver into the slot to lightly spread the spindle mount, and the ball joint stud should slip right in like it came out. |
Yep, trying that. I think the problem is that I can’t get the stud to start straight so it is binding
_________________
'67 Squareback
'69 Squareback
'68 Westfalia
'68 Squareback
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's
www.evenkeelsurfshapes.com |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23596
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:43 am Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| OhHerrooo wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
| OhHerrooo wrote: |
| Nope, no pickle fork. Yeah I think it’s binding. Just not sure how to get it corrected. |
if you have a chisel - stick it into the slot and tap it to separate the metal slightly - the ball joint will come out. It's 'bent' closed by the bolt by design. |
Yep I got it and re-indexed the arm. Getting the ball joint stud back in to the lower arm is proving to be a real PITA. Any tips? I've never done the front of a car.
I've cleaned the bore but will give it another go in the AM. I'll shoot some oil in to the bore to make sure the ball joint stud slides in easily (it was fairly rusty in there). |
Tap a screw driver into the slot to lightly spread the spindle mount, and the ball joint stud should slip right in like it came out.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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OhHerrooo
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2010
Posts: 1291
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| OhHerrooo wrote: |
| Nope, no pickle fork. Yeah I think it’s binding. Just not sure how to get it corrected. |
if you have a chisel - stick it into the slot and tap it to separate the metal slightly - the ball joint will come out. It's 'bent' closed by the bolt by design. |
Yep I got it and re-indexed the arm. Getting the ball joint stud back in to the lower arm is proving to be a real PITA. Any tips? I've never done the front of a car.
I've cleaned the bore but will give it another go in the AM. I'll shoot some oil in to the bore to make sure the ball joint stud slides in easily (it was fairly rusty in there).
_________________
'67 Squareback
'69 Squareback
'68 Westfalia
'68 Squareback
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's
www.evenkeelsurfshapes.com |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4513
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| OhHerrooo wrote: |
| Nope, no pickle fork. Yeah I think it’s binding. Just not sure how to get it corrected. |
if you have a chisel - stick it into the slot and tap it to separate the metal slightly - the ball joint will come out. It's 'bent' closed by the bolt by design. |
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OhHerrooo
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2010
Posts: 1291
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 18054
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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You have your floor jack under it which might have it wedged/cocked somehow? Jack it under the center of the beam & see if that helps. You do have a big 'pickle fork' ball joint separator you are using?
_________________
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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OhHerrooo
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2010
Posts: 1291
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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Currently stuck here:
Having a tough time getting the bottom stud of the ball joint free of the lower control arm. Would it be easier to try and break free the 30mm bolt from the top?
_________________
'67 Squareback
'69 Squareback
'68 Westfalia
'68 Squareback
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's
www.evenkeelsurfshapes.com |
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t-royR
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2012
Posts: 471
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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i had the front end aligned after lowering it, and it rides very well. Nice tight steering and straight down the road.
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T-roy
75 Super
71 Super
71 Ghia coupe auto-stick
71 Ghia conv
69 Fasty
74 Ghia conv |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23596
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:08 am Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| OhHerrooo wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
OhHerrooo, for the rear torsion bar covers (re-installing them), I use some longer threaded bolts (threaded their full length), and compress the cover into place. Then I just swap them with the original ones I had removed. This works very well, and the longer bolts only need to be about 3 inches long. I got them at my local ACE hardware store. Your arrow pointing to the torsion bar end bolt is where I also use a longer bolt (swapped for the existing shorter one) to keep the torsion bar in alignment for resetting the lower trailing arm. Doing this makes the job go so much quicker.
I hope this helps. |
Thanks Bob, that's what I plan on doing. I was just re-uploading all of the pics from the first page through hosting on the samba in case OP's photobucket expired. |
Oh I understand. It's a shame Cugier's video's disappeared. But I just thought I'd add the part about using longer bolts, in case someone is doing the rear too.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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OhHerrooo
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2010
Posts: 1291
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
OhHerrooo, for the rear torsion bar covers (re-installing them), I use some longer threaded bolts (threaded their full length), and compress the cover into place. Then I just swap them with the original ones I had removed. This works very well, and the longer bolts only need to be about 3 inches long. I got them at my local ACE hardware store. Your arrow pointing to the torsion bar end bolt is where I also use a longer bolt (swapped for the existing shorter one) to keep the torsion bar in alignment for resetting the lower trailing arm. Doing this makes the job go so much quicker.
I hope this helps. |
Thanks Bob, that's what I plan on doing. I was just re-uploading all of the pics from the first page through hosting on the samba in case OP's photobucket expired.
_________________
'67 Squareback
'69 Squareback
'68 Westfalia
'68 Squareback
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's
www.evenkeelsurfshapes.com |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23596
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:49 am Post subject: Re: How to Lower / Raise Front and Rear Suspension |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
Got a Bentley manual? Or other manual that lists the specs? Chances are it is not in the computer at the shop. Also, chances are they do not know two unique aspects of the VW/Type 3:
- Front camber should be adjusted on the bottom ball joint only, after putting the top one in the "center" position.
-Rear toe is adjusted by sliding the axle tube or diagonal arm in the spring plate slots. This is unique to this type of trailing arm rear suspension which almost no other car uses (unless they are a European specialist, then the odds increase to 50/50). |
Another thing that's unique to the type 3, is that there is NO caster adjustment. It's built into the front beam mount, and not adjustable. So when lowering the front, you take some/most of the caster away. Yes, there were thicker beam mount rubbers, but by 66 or 67 they were already in use standard from the factory. This was an option for the 65 and earlier cars to have their caster corrected (at the dealership).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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