50 degree I-4 install hydraulic engine mounts

[Vanagon Nut]

[zuhandenheit]

I'm using the stock bars and everything in my 82 diesel converted to AAZ. I have wondered what exactly the cross brace accomplishes and how, given that it's relatively flimsy.

I only notice significant vibration under unusual conditions and when I shut down my motor.

And I even have a exhaust that's hung from the chassis rather than engine (this was so much easier). I've got various problems certainly but vibration isn't one.

I do worry a bit about having trouble finding new motor mounts when the time comes. That's pretty much the only reason I've given any thought to alternative mounting arrangements.

As others have suggested, VW designed this system for the 1.6d, so maybe as long as one runs a similar engine vibration should be reasonable. What 50 degree-mounted engines are the most problematic wrt vibration?

[MarkWard]

Somewhere there is a thread about diesel carrier bar versions. The first generation bars in north America had the rubber bushings in both bars both ends.

The connection was made with a flat bar that had one slotted end. A flat bar really offers very little reinforcement, so I don't think VW intended for it to be a "member" brace.

I have the 82 bars and on my 3rd cross brace design. I replaced the original with a straight tube with heim joints on both ends. The idea was that I could lengthen or shorten it to get the ideal length. Unfortunately, the heims were cheap and the tube vibrated to much. My current cross bar is a non adjustable tube. It was custom made to fit. Does it make a difference? I don't know.

I have uploaded photos of my final cross brace.

[Vanagon Nut]

[AndyBees]

To be honest, I never welded one thing on my project. I used a local guy that's really good and was willing to work with me. I marked-up everything either on paper with measurements or made a prototype from scratch. He did my mounting brackets (both sides), exhaust, carrier bars, oil pan and raised deck lid. My oil pan is SS........ he accidently missed the angle by 1 degree... LOL

The off-set on the right bar always worried me about the possibilities of twisting. And, I believe without much doubt both bars are probably stressed without having something to keep them "centered" as to the weight of the engine as well as the torque.
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI, two trips to Alaska, 2014 & 16. 1989 Tin-top unmolested.
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine, seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. 1975 Bay hopeful.

[?Waldo?]

I'm in the process of doing another mTDI install. The carrier bar set that I have has the later style mount plates. The passenger side bar is solid at both ends, but the driver's side has the bushing on both ends. I will add a brace in the same way that Itzdshtz used. I figure it is fairly easy to do and avoids side loads on the hydraulic mounts that would likely wear them out faster.

[Vanagon Nut]

Well, IMO, that info is relevant. To me it shows that someone with some welding skills can modify that passenger side bar and have it hold up and not ruin a hydro mount (or worse), if it failed. Seriously though, to me, what you did seems to be a better idea than moving the bar and adding metal between the engine mount arm and hydro mount.

For different reasons, I wanted to do something similar to accommodate a Mk3 PS pump but wasn't sure my MIG skills could be trusted. I should have trusted them. Would've saved a bunch of work!

IIRC, Mark Ward did something similar on his TDI swap.


Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)

1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[AndyBees]

Sort of feel like I'm in part high-jacking this Thread. But, sharing info and experiences helps everyone.

So, below are a couple of pics taken 6 years ago of the two carrier bars right after they were modified for the hydraulic mounts. The right carrier bar was also modified to clear the AC Compressor. Anyway, based on what I'm seeing and re-visiting my installation, maybe I need to do some additional work.

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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI, two trips to Alaska, 2014 & 16. 1989 Tin-top unmolested.
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine, seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. 1975 Bay hopeful.

[Vanagon Nut]

[AndyBees]

Well, this is all very interesting, as my conversion has been in use for 6 years and over 82k miles of which at least 22k of those miles were pulling a popup camper and stuff weighing fairly close to 1400 pounds. No issues.

I do like the looks of the reinforced carrier bars using the GMC Tracker brace.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI, two trips to Alaska, 2014 & 16. 1989 Tin-top unmolested.
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine, seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. 1975 Bay hopeful.

[Vanagon Nut]

Thanks ?waldo?

Ok. Right. Duh. I see what you mean re: balance point.

I'd used Itzdshtz' design as a start point; one basket is shaped from a single piece of metal. But, being such a fabricating newb, in spite of annealing the bend areas, I soon found out how f'ing hard it was to keep bending it to the final shape using a large vice, crescent wrenches and the like. Suffice it say a BFH was deployed and that the second basket was a combination of bending and welding. Anyway....

I'd planned to make support brackets for each bar to mid point at frame rail but got focused on other things.

Maybe I should just install a cross bar regardless. Can't hurt I guess.

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)

1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[?Waldo?]

The balance is determined by the aluminum mounting brackets. Where the mounts are mounted to the carrier bars fore/aft doesn't affect it. Your engine is a little different setup but the balance is still probably similar to stock diesel vanagon.

Itzdshtz did a nice mod to eliminate the bottom bar.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672283

[Vanagon Nut]

Thanks for that. Helpful to know.

My rough guess was that since the diesel Vanagon OE mounts might have a fair amount of "give" to them, that, combined with rubber isolated brackets at all four ends of the carrier bars, might allow for some carrier bar wiggle or vibration at some RPM's.

I moved the carrier bar mount brackets rearward by about 2" so my engine balance might not be as good but that's an interesting point to ponder.

In my case, since I positioned the ABA engine lower to fit under the lid, the strap would be a little more work to make but maybe I don't need it. I guess I can always add it later.

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)

1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[AndyBees]

I started out with similar hydraulic mounts with no support or connection between the two carrier bars ............ no problems. Then, I switched back to the OE style rubber mounts with no support or connection between the two carrier bars ... no problems (ALH TDI engine). The mounting brackets are all fabricated steel bits based on my roughly hand drawn plans and aluminum prototypes.

The balance is so good, I can remove the transmission without supporting the engine. It basically sits level with only a very slight tilt toward the front, really just enough to make it easy to remove or install the transmission.

I like the looks of that hydraulic mount.

Edited for clarification.....
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI, two trips to Alaska, 2014 & 16. 1989 Tin-top unmolested.
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine, seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. 1975 Bay hopeful.

[Vanagon Nut]

[MarkWard]

No affiliation, but I recall a company called Eurospec was promoting an upright engine conversion kit. Check their website.

[joetiger]

The top picture is a bit misleading; there's about 3/8 inch of clearance between the rubber-coated steel bottom piece and the block bracket. However, looking at the bottom picture (passenger side,) that lower piece is touching the block bracket. That's obviously a problem that I need to solve.

The mounts are very similar to Scirocco/Rabbit trans mounts, but the bolts are different. They're also somewhat similar to Miata mounts but again the bolts are offset whereas they appear to be straight through on mine.

Does anybody make a 15 degree carrier bar that would incorporate hydraulic mounts as well as exhaust mounting? That's my silver bullet but unfortunately I can't do it myself.
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Joe T.

'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'91 Wolfsburg Carat "Barchetta"
'02 Baja-ish Beetle "Bubbles"

"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron

"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond

Justice for Megan: https://linktr.ee/justiceformegantrussell

[Vanagon Nut]

[Zeitgeist 13]

I'm not sure I like how short those mounting arms are, as I imagine they're not much help with reducing rocking motions. I prefer to locate the arms further up the block with a wider spread to isolate motion and vibration. You're going to have a hard time fitting any other type of mount with that tight of a spacing from the arms to the crossbar.


To answer the question about my adapter/flywheel combo; they're a Kennedy kit. I would recommend getting the FAS billet adapter, as opposed to the cast Kennedy unit.
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Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH
'01 Weekender --> full camper
NEAT, no ICE.

[MarkWard]

The square mounts above remind me of vw rabbit scirocco rear trans mount.