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ragnarhairybreeks
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 1940
Location: Sidney B.C. Canada
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 Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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I tried a fiamma air horn years ago (used one), was frustrating. I did not have a relay installed at that time, and the horn was a real electron hog, every connection had to be perfect. Intermittently working etc.
They do draw a bit of amperage.
alistair
_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com |
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climberjohn
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2005
Posts: 1840
Location: Portland Orygun
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| DAIZEE wrote: |
 my purpose here is to show that new horn, new wiring, new whatever can still make for a finicky horn. Mine is the example. I haven't taken it off topic, just putting in. |
Exact same experience for me!
Stock horn was working fine, but I wanted something to really get attention.
I got a LOUD Italian truck horn from Griot's Garage.
Ran new main power wires, new relay, new ground, nearly new everything except for the original horn wires, which were input for the relay. The damn thing has been frustratingly intermittent since then, even blowing the inline fuse on occasion. It's working at the moment, but still was/is sort of a PITA project.
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'86 Westy, 2.5 Subaru power
Know your limits. Exceed them often. |
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DAIZEE
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 7552
Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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The finickyness continues! Is there a definitive solution or am I chasing a dream of what should be  
_________________
'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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DAIZEE
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 7552
Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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I did some sanding on that circular disc. It is not wearing flat. As John said we have conductivity everywhere but inside the horn insert in the centre of the wheel.
Are big non powersteering wheels readily available? Can one ask that it be in working order? Is it even worth holding off buying another wheel? Maybe replace BIG wheel and use this one to take apart! and then play with it?
I forgot to test the horn today, its finicky and I think we can definitely say it is NOT electrical from top of steering wheel down.
_________________
'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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ragnarhairybreeks
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 1940
Location: Sidney B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:57 am Post subject: Re: ring |
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| J Charlton wrote: |
| we've checked the copper tab and the horn contact ring - good contiuity there - pretty sure the problem is inside the wheel with the three contact points where the outside plastic push piece forces contacts together when one pushes it. I need to get that plastic piece off and clean up the contacts and or, redo them somehow. |
I think you asked before if the horn button system is the same in non power steering vs power steering wheels (large vs small). I have both, and no obvious diff seen, but i wasn't looking that critically. I can look again and take pics if you want.
alistair
_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com |
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J Charlton 
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007
Posts: 1546
Location: The True North Strong and Free
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:19 am Post subject: ring |
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we've checked the copper tab and the horn contact ring - good contiuity there - pretty sure the problem is inside the wheel with the three contact points where the outside plastic push piece forces contacts together when one pushes it. I need to get that plastic piece off and clean up the contacts and or, redo them somehow.
_________________
NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024 |
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ragnarhairybreeks
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 1940
Location: Sidney B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:53 am Post subject: |
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One more thing for you hornless ones  ....
you have checked the condition of the horn contact ring haven't you? You know, the brass ring on the underside of the steering wheel that makes contact to a little tab of beryllium copper on the turn signal stalk base plate.
Often the brass is worn in places and you loose electrical contact, and sometimes the copper tab is worn out. The ring is replaceable, but the copper tab is not, well its riveted to the switch plate.
I'd have a look at that, especially if horn seems to work off and on.
some pics here: http://shufti.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/horn-contact-ring/
alistair
_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com |
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DAIZEE
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 7552
Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Keep us updated and test it periodically okay. I'm following you and your horn.
_________________
'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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vagonan
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2005
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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So I went ahead and cleaned up the grounds under the dash and the steering post last night but still couldn't get it to work.
Pressed the horn button on the way back from dinner tonight, and realized it works now. Not sure exactly what the issue was but I am assuming it had something to do with the grounds. Thanks for the input.  |
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J Charlton
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007
Posts: 1546
Location: The True North Strong and Free
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:53 am Post subject: horn |
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We've isolated the problem with the horn intermittency or unpredicability to bad contacts right in the horn part of the steering wheel itself. How does the horn "plastic push against" part release from the rest of the steering wheel - I can free it at one edge, by releasing the "ears" on a couple of clips but the other seems to be held somehow. If I can get it apart, I can clean up/adjust the contacts to be good.
Next question, how universal to vanagons was the inside of the steering wheel horn assembly? There is a copper or brass connection strip that runs from side to side - is it common to all years or is there a difference in them between vans with power steering (smaller diam steering wheel) and manual steering vans (larger steering wheel)?
Thanks
_________________
NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 1 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 4 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2024 |
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ragnarhairybreeks
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 1940
Location: Sidney B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| syncrodoka wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Just to confirm, your relay is not in position 6, but rather on an aux. holder? |
I wired up a relay using a factory relay holder and it will snap on the top of the fuse box. Sticking a relay into position 6 won't do anything as our NA spec vans aren't wired for the relay.
I see what you are doing with the wiring diagram now. You are sticking the relay into position 6 and rewiring the rear of the fuse box to work with a relay there. I might try that approach.
I know I need a relay as I get much less than 12V at the positive line for the horn(I get like 3-4V). The dual horns I have in there now need more power than a stock van anyways. |
well in a sense NA vans are wired for the dual horn relay, just have to do a little wire jumping
position 6 is THE factory spot for a horn relay. And the connector group L1 thru L4 are the connectors listed by VW as for relayed horns. So if you want to keep it factory, follow my edited NA wiring diagram which brings you close to the factory way.
But... there is always a but... you'll need a connector removing tool (i lathed one http://shufti.wordpress.com/2010/02/28/multi-prong-connector-tool/ ), or cheap to buy (search on molex connector), or you might find a bit of thin wall tubing that will work.
And... it would be so nice to find a plastic connector block that fits in the L connector group spot. Would make the connections oh so secure.
cheers
alistair
_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12354
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Just to confirm, your relay is not in position 6, but rather on an aux. holder? |
I wired up a relay using a factory relay holder and it will snap on the top of the fuse box. Sticking a relay into position 6 won't do anything as our NA spec vans aren't wired for the relay.
I see what you are doing with the wiring diagram now. You are sticking the relay into position 6 and rewiring the rear of the fuse box to work with a relay there. I might try that approach.
I know I need a relay as I get much less than 12V at the positive line for the horn(I get like 3-4V). The dual horns I have in there now need more power than a stock van anyways. |
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DAIZEE
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 7552
Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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thanks. We'll try to figure it out tomorrow.
_________________
'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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ragnarhairybreeks
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 1940
Location: Sidney B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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back to new horn not working, have you made sure all connections are good? remember there are connections on back of fuse panel and they may be iffy. I think original poster said a click was heard when horn button depressed, and horn bench tests ok, if so I would suspect a bad connection. the horn is a relatively higher current draw, a bit of resistance on a bad connection could be critical.
alistair
_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com |
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DAIZEE
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 7552
Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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my purpose here is to show that new horn, new wiring, new whatever can still make for a finicky horn. Mine is the example. I haven't taken it off topic, just putting in.
_________________
'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17193
Location: Brookeville, MD
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DAIZEE
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 7552
Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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gggrrrrr this morning I tested the horn and it worked :!:Tried it several times later = no sound. We'll look at it tomorrow
_________________
'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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ragnarhairybreeks
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 1940
Location: Sidney B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| syncrodoka wrote: |
| ragnarhairybreeks thanks for clearing up the wiring for me. I have the relay all built with a factory relay holder that clips to the fuse block, just had to verify the wires. Thanks |
Just to confirm, your relay is not in position 6, but rather on an aux. holder?
Just being absolutely clear, above diagrams show wiring to horns using a relay in the #6 position on the fuse/relay panel "proper".
cheers
alistair
_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12354
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| ragnarhairybreeks thanks for clearing up the wiring for me. I have the relay all built with a factory relay holder that clips to the fuse block, just had to verify the wires. Thanks |
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DAIZEE
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 7552
Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:19 am Post subject: |
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I want a loud funny horn  but I better get the one I have working first 
_________________
'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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