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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42976
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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 Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
That's basically my logic as well Skills. The fluid I initially dumped didn't look/smell terrible, but I'll get some miles on it and get things hot and see where we go from there.
From what I've gathered a new transmission is anywhere from $1200-$1600 including the core, with shipping about a $100. Not quite ready to go that route just yet. |
that is a cheaply rebuilt one. One with all parts to spec like new is about $5K |
Ain’t happening Jack. |
spoilsport 
_________________
 Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
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SamboSamba22
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2806
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
That's basically my logic as well Skills. The fluid I initially dumped didn't look/smell terrible, but I'll get some miles on it and get things hot and see where we go from there.
From what I've gathered a new transmission is anywhere from $1200-$1600 including the core, with shipping about a $100. Not quite ready to go that route just yet. |
that is a cheaply rebuilt one. One with all parts to spec like new is about $5K |
Ain’t happening Jack.
_________________
The Bus Barn Ltd. Co.
Oct. ’67 Double Cab (’68 Crew Cab)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44412.png]Click to view image[/URL]
March '69 Delivery (Panel Bus)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44414.png]Click to view image[/URL] |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42976
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
That's basically my logic as well Skills. The fluid I initially dumped didn't look/smell terrible, but I'll get some miles on it and get things hot and see where we go from there.
From what I've gathered a new transmission is anywhere from $1200-$1600 including the core, with shipping about a $100. Not quite ready to go that route just yet. |
that is a cheaply rebuilt one. One with all parts to spec like new is about $5K
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
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SamboSamba22
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2806
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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That's basically my logic as well Skills. The fluid I initially dumped didn't look/smell terrible, but I'll get some miles on it and get things hot and see where we go from there.
From what I've gathered a new transmission is anywhere from $1200-$1600 including the core, with shipping about a $100. Not quite ready to go that route just yet.
_________________
The Bus Barn Ltd. Co.
Oct. ’67 Double Cab (’68 Crew Cab)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44412.png]Click to view image[/URL]
March '69 Delivery (Panel Bus)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44414.png]Click to view image[/URL] |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17983
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
Not sure what you are saying here. |
i'm saying what I said.... 002 is synonymous with early bays so I wanted to make sure he didn't chop one up from a 71 down trans. like I said if it was an early 002 there was no need to cut anything, but he clarified that it was from a later bus, which I suspected but wanted to confirm.
@sambo...
if it sat for a while it is possible that stuff gummed up I suppose, or any burrs from your cut are wearing down...but if you did smooth over the cut as you described I don't think that is the cause.
at this point it sounds to me like a mystery trans. I would drive it like I stole it, get it screaming hot and dump the fluid...a couple of times and see where you're at after that
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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SamboSamba22
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2806
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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1968 Bus, transmission from a 1973 Bus
Backstory:
Transmission is a CK case, built originally for the 1700 type 4 bus. I cut the 11mm off to allow for proper fitment to the type 1 engine. I cut the excess with a cut wheel, which I finished up with an angle grinder while rotating the shaft to make it as round as possible. Once I was happy with that, I hand-sanded it, starting at 80-200-800-1500. I understood the importance of having this smooth. I greased the splines and the input shaft, along with the tip which saddles in the pilot bearing.
Clutch pedal is at 3/4-1” of free play. Drove the bus this morning and it is smoothing out. Perhaps giving it time to get the hypoid oil over everything?
I’ll check the Bowden tube again, but I don’t recall seeing anything out of the ordinary.
_________________
The Bus Barn Ltd. Co.
Oct. ’67 Double Cab (’68 Crew Cab)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44412.png]Click to view image[/URL]
March '69 Delivery (Panel Bus)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44414.png]Click to view image[/URL] |
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Zed999
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1459
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:58 am Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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A couple of suggestions...
Look at the Bowden tube bracket on the side of the transaxle, the bolts are short and people often over tighten and strip the threads.
Look at the fixing on the rear suspension tube for the steel cable conduit at the other end of the Bowden tube, they come adrift sometimes.
Both the above, particularly the second suggestion add enough free play to the clutch operation to reduce the clutch movement enough to crunch the gears. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52748
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:42 am Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
| I installed a 3-rib 002 transmission into my bus. Cut the input shaft down 11mm to mate properly with the pilot bearing in the gland nut since I'm running a type 1 engine. |
what year bus? unless it was a late 002 there should be no reason to cut the input shaft.
if there were any and I mean any burrs at all you probably trashed the pilot bearing. you want the input shaft super smooth, almost mirror like (well, that's how I do them anyway) |
Not sure what you are saying here, IF the tranny had the longer input shaft for a Type 4 the shaft would have needed to be shortened to work with a Type 1 engine. After shortening the input shaft needs to be tapered so that it goes into the bearing easily.
Of course if the tranny actually had had an input shaft that was the proper length for a Type 1 and it was then shortened, then it would now be too short. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17983
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
| I installed a 3-rib 002 transmission into my bus. Cut the input shaft down 11mm to mate properly with the pilot bearing in the gland nut since I'm running a type 1 engine. |
what year bus? unless it was a late 002 there should be no reason to cut the input shaft.
if there were any and I mean any burrs at all you probably trashed the pilot bearing. you want the input shaft super smooth, almost mirror like (well, that's how I do them anyway)
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42976
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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the shift forks are controlled by shift rails which have interlocks so two cannot be engaged at the same time. Replacing the bushings might make the shifts less sloppy but it doesn't affect what goes on inside the transmission. It might make it easier to find a specific gear but doesn't affect the way the shift rails work. I can't answer your question on the burrs. What happens to the metal that comes off - it falls into the pilot bearing and causes issues or not. Did you lube the input shaft splines and make sure the clutch disk slid on it? Did you readjust the clutch cable correctly to 3/4" freeplay?
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
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SamboSamba22
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2806
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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So I decided to replace the forward most two bushings in the shift rod because I had them, and I didn’t want to completely jump to the “dammit wagon”.
Surprisingly, this made a huge difference. I mean, huge.
I’m still getting a grind with any attempts of down shifting into 3rd. Going less than 25mph, it’ll go no problem.
Now, I had cut 11mm off the input shaft to allow for the type 1 engine, since the transmission was built for a type 4. I’m guessing the shaft does in fact has some burrs in it? Perhaps these will smooth out? Am I being too optimistic?
_________________
The Bus Barn Ltd. Co.
Oct. ’67 Double Cab (’68 Crew Cab)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44412.png]Click to view image[/URL]
March '69 Delivery (Panel Bus)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44414.png]Click to view image[/URL] |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42976
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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you likely have clutch or pilot bearing issues or it would not shift when the engine is off. Having one synchro bad yes but not likely all of them.
If you have more than 1" of freeplay at the pedal then you have too much and it may not be releasing.
You can have a disc that is not sliding on the input shaft. You check to be sure it slides freely before you install the clutch.
You can have a situation where the input shaft has some burrs on it so it doesn't spin freely in the pilot bearing.
The clutch disc can be warped.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
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SamboSamba22
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2806
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Shifting trouble |
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So I'm panning old threads looking for answers and solutions to what I'm experiencing. I installed a 3-rib 002 transmission into my bus. Cut the input shaft down 11mm to mate properly with the pilot bearing in the gland nut since I'm running a type 1 engine.
Issues/Trouble: When the engine is not running, I can shift smoothly into all gears. Upon starting the bus, it is damn near a nightmare to change gears sitting still. Get the bus moving? Changing gears is MUCH easier but 3rd grinds randomly when shifting.
I had cleaned up this transmission: pulled the nosecone, replaced the shift selector ball, bushings in the nosecone, the shift fork and it's bushings in the bell housing, along with a new clutch kit including the throwout bearing. Replaced the rear shift rod coupler too. I've also adjusted the shifter and it's plate in the cab floor multiple times.
Now the Bentley calls or 1/2" to 1" of freeplay (travel) within the clutch pedal before you actually feel it engage with the clutch. I am WELL beyond that rule of thumb to just barely be able to get things into gear. I'm thinking this transmission has worn syncros, anyone have any thoughts on my troubles?
_________________
The Bus Barn Ltd. Co.
Oct. ’67 Double Cab (’68 Crew Cab)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44412.png]Click to view image[/URL]
March '69 Delivery (Panel Bus)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44414.png]Click to view image[/URL] |
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Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8586
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: trans |
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| junichi wrote: |
| My trans is 6 rib.. shifter is definitely very sloppy up front, so I'll probably get a new bushing in there while I'm at it. Now that i don't have to force it in to gear, my fingers are healing up! |
I noted two things reading through this thread:
"clutch engages nice and close to the floor" which means that it is *disengaging too close to the floor*
and
"now that I don't have to force it" for future reference, never never never never force anything. If it ain't working, gently find your solution ... works in relationships too.
Colin 
_________________
www.itinerant-air-cooled.com
www.facebook.com/groups/324780910972038/ |
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samwise
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2010
Posts: 611
Location: North Salt Lake, Utah
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Part no. 211-711-182 ?
_________________
Ben
1979 7-passenger bus
Harvee the Wonder Bus' pics |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42976
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| SixStringMadMan wrote: |
Crawled under my bus last night and looks like the bushing is completely missing, awesome. Looks like I need to order one for a 78.
Are there any other bushing/gaskets to order and replace while doing this repair or maybe a kit with all necessary parts? |
this is a really good article that every bus owner who has shift problems must read. http://www.ratwell.com/technical/091Transmission.html
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
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SixStringMadMan
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2011
Posts: 263
Location: Roseville, CA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Crawled under my bus last night and looks like the bushing is completely missing, awesome. Looks like I need to order one for a 78.
Are there any other bushing/gaskets to order and replace while doing this repair or maybe a kit with all necessary parts?
_________________
1978 Kombi
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-10020.htm |
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junichi
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2005
Posts: 781
Location: brentwood bay, bc
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:27 am Post subject: trans |
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| My trans is 6 rib.. shifter is definitely very sloppy up front, so I'll probably get a new bushing in there while I'm at it. Now that i don't have to force it in to gear, my fingers are healing up! |
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Heliconman
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:46 am Post subject: Re: wrong trans? |
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| junichi wrote: |
hmm.. how do i tell if I have the right trans??
Heliconman: It does jump ever so slightly if i start it with no brakes and in first gear with clutch in.. so i guess the clutch cable is needed.
I will follow up on the other suggestions as well...
Thanks everyone. |
Well that's good news and an easy fix. Regarding the trans just find pictures either in the bentley manual or look in the classifieds for transmissions and you will see the difference between the 3 rib and 6 rib.
My current cable from German supply is supposed to be German made but I am not sure if it is a GEMO cable. I found my ground strap to have some wear which made me think it was the problem.
You may have other issues with the shifter being close to the dash but good to hear the main problem is solved. |
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junichi
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2005
Posts: 781
Location: brentwood bay, bc
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject: cable |
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| I adjusted the clutch cable today and all is well.. though it needs replacing for sure. |
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