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kadub
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2004
Posts: 444
Location: Auburn, Wa
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 Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| yamaducci wrote: |
| kadub wrote: |
| Drysump or not, the cam lives below the crank, and is not submerged in oil, so the filling of the 3/4 head is still an issue even with "low" oil levels with deep sumped engines, as well as drysump engines. It's not like the crank is whipping through a pool of oil in the sump slinging it over to the 3/4 side. |
Run a 90 mm full circle crank with a wet sump and you will see that the crank does fling oil into the 3/4 side and all the way up the breather tube; over the engine and down to the other side  |
I don't doubt it 
My post was in response to 58Dub's post on the previous page. |
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mark tucker
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Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23945
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I think there were other issues at play,was the oil pressure regulator open causing the oil to releave to the #3 pushrod tube??? spray bars can also be in the valve covers.I like the idea of having them pressure regulated also. |
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yamaducci
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Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2373
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| kadub wrote: |
| Drysump or not, the cam lives below the crank, and is not submerged in oil, so the filling of the 3/4 head is still an issue even with "low" oil levels with deep sumped engines, as well as drysump engines. It's not like the crank is whipping through a pool of oil in the sump slinging it over to the 3/4 side. |
Run a 90 mm full circle crank with a wet sump and you will see that the crank does fling oil into the 3/4 side and all the way up the breather tube; over the engine and down to the other side
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My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
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yamaducci
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Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2373
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| 58Dub wrote: |
| yamaducci wrote: |
| tarsomadeinbrazil wrote: |
What level of oil inside of cover valve in high RPM? Times ago I see one video with RPM x level of oil inside cover valve, but I dont remember where I see now...someone see this video? Have one window (acrilic or glass) in the cover valve and can see the level of oil.... I don't know if this topic is correct here  |
If/When I run these spray bars I will also run a drysump line to the bottom of the valve cover to suck the oil out of the cover and send it to the cooler. The right cover would otherwise be nearly empty and the left cover would be full due to crank rotation.
The video you are talking about is from Jake Raby. do a search on him or his site. |
if you run a drysump, would the crank still throw that much oil into the head? I thought with the sump being all but empty, it would greatly reduce that. |
I built the engine with a dry sump that is why I say "Otherwise" it would fill the 3/4 side with oil.
With the dry sump the only way the oil level would rise is with a high flowing spray bar at high RPM. My intent on getting the oil sucked back to the sump and back to the cooler is for the purposes of cooling the head and springs a few degrees. A normal engine does not this sort of additional cooling but my engine is on the extreme end of the scale to be honest.
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My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
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kadub
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2004
Posts: 444
Location: Auburn, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Drysump or not, the cam lives below the crank, and is not submerged in oil, so the filling of the 3/4 head is still an issue even with "low" oil levels with deep sumped engines, as well as drysump engines. It's not like the crank is whipping through a pool of oil in the sump slinging it over to the 3/4 side. |
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58Dub
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Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 1713
Location: Davison, MI
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| yamaducci wrote: |
| tarsomadeinbrazil wrote: |
| What level of oil inside of cover valve in high RPM? Times ago I see one video with RPM x level of oil inside cover valve, but I dont remember where I see now...someone see this video? Have one window (acrilic or glass) in the cover valve and can see the level of oil.... I don't know if this topic is correct here |
If/When I run these spray bars I will also run a drysump line to the bottom of the valve cover to suck the oil out of the cover and send it to the cooler. The right cover would otherwise be nearly empty and the left cover woudl be full due to crank rotation.
The video you are talking about is from Jake Raby. do a search on him or his site. |
if you run a drysump, would the crank still throw that much oil into the head? I thought with the sump being all but empty, it would greatly reduce that.
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yamaducci
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Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2373
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| tarsomadeinbrazil wrote: |
| What level of oil inside of cover valve in high RPM? Times ago I see one video with RPM x level of oil inside cover valve, but I dont remember where I see now...someone see this video? Have one window (acrilic or glass) in the cover valve and can see the level of oil.... I don't know if this topic is correct here |
If/When I run these spray bars I will also run a drysump line to the bottom of the valve cover to suck the oil out of the cover and send it to the cooler. The right cover would otherwise be nearly empty and the left cover woudl be full due to crank rotation.
The video you are talking about is from Jake Raby. do a search on him or his site.
_________________
-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested. |
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fusca66
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Joined: September 13, 2007
Posts: 86
Location: Paraná/Santa Catarina Brazil
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:14 am Post subject: |
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What level of oil inside of cover valve in high RPM? Times ago I see one video with RPM x level of oil inside cover valve, but I dont remember where I see now...someone see this video? Have one window (acrilic or glass) in the cover valve and can see the level of oil.... I don't know if this topic is correct here :roll:
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fastone
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Joined: August 16, 2010
Posts: 215
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for the delay don't get over here very often, There was never a inline restricter
ifrk the holes were .040 #3 line and silver soldered on the ends.
Keep in mind that all Auto-Craft engines where dry sumped with 30mm primary gears.
Tom: you might get away with a tee in drag racing but in circle track it would
suck air on the inside head rather than oil. It's also a know fact you can't tee scanvage lines.
John: if your haveing trouble with rocker shafts the heat treat is bad, I have never seen
the bearings eat any shafts, also you can drill those rockers for oiling screws.
I have done this, but only to helps oil the guides, With no hole oil in the screws oil only
comes out when there's lash.
Also in that pic we sprayed the springs not the shaft the holes in that bar are upside down
from the way we made them.
hope this's helps... |
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RockCrusher
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Joined: August 03, 2010
Posts: 4596
Location: Parkesburg, PA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| yamaducci wrote: |
| That's actually what I planned to do; Great minds think alike eh Paul. |
Yeah....it's an East Coast phenomenon! 
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yamaducci
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Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2373
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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That's actually what I planned to do; Great minds think alike eh Paul.
_________________
-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested. |
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RockCrusher
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Joined: August 03, 2010
Posts: 4596
Location: Parkesburg, PA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| yamaducci wrote: |
| .040 Holes seem large to me but that was quoted by Turbo Tom. I would think if you were going for multi-angles like spring and rocker arm then smaller holes would be best. I will find out as I mock it up and test. |
You could make a bar with as many ports as you intend to use and start with small (.020?) holes and pressurize regulate a PVC oil reservoir with air to the pressure you think you'll see in operation and see how it looks to you. Open the holes a little at a time until you think you went too far and make a new one to actually use in the head. Better test it in a bucket.
For cooling, you want a bit more than a mist of oil but less than a stream...kind of like really poorly atomized fuel.
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[email protected] Please use email for all general inquiries.
I will be happy to speak to anyone who has a serious inquiry (meaning real potential business for RC enterprises) or a parts order. Due to machining noise causing missed calls all calls will be returned promptly. |
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yamaducci
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Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2373
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:02 am Post subject: |
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I was thinking sil/phos would do it. What about stainless line and Aluminum -3AN fitting? I like the threaded plug end idea since I was thinking about just drilling a "detent" hole in the head and resting the end of the tube in there. It would allow future cleanings as well.
Another simple termination would be to crimp the end and solder like; production spray bars.
.040 Holes seem large to me but that was quoted by Turbo Tom. I would think if you were going for multi-angles like spring and rocker arm then smaller holes would be best. I will find out as I mock it up and test.
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My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested. |
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RockCrusher
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Joined: August 03, 2010
Posts: 4596
Location: Parkesburg, PA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:47 am Post subject: |
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The spray bar can be silver soldered into a steel fitting. I would think the far end was just capped shut. Could be threaded and a tiny set screw installed. .040 holes seem a bit big to me (but then I have no frame of reference either). I would think .030 should be plenty big and shouldn't really need a regulating device. I'm thinking that a simple on/off regular spring (I guess like the Porsche oiler) actuated at higher pressures would make idle pressure normal. Just some thoughts on my part.
RC
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[email protected] Please use email for all general inquiries.
I will be happy to speak to anyone who has a serious inquiry (meaning real potential business for RC enterprises) or a parts order. Due to machining noise causing missed calls all calls will be returned promptly. |
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yamaducci
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Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2373
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I agree, I have considered the restrictor from a turbo oiler line, a Porsche piston oil squireter embeded in a manifold block as well as a good old fashioned control valve from a type 1 in a manifold block with variable adjustment spring pressure.
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My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
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TomSimon
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Joined: January 13, 2004
Posts: 753
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:10 am Post subject: |
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John, the other very important thing you need to know, beside how the other end is terminated, is if AC used an in-line restricter orifice to limit oil flow to the spray bars. I bet Fastone can tell us.
The reason I mention restricter is this story; A good buddy of my had a normally aspirated V6 built for his sandrail from mix-n-match of old NASCAR Busch or ARCA Series parts he bought off ebay. (high-nickle bow tie block, Moldex crank, Carrillo rods, race heads, T&D rockers, roller lifters, Belt drive, the whole enchilada) The important part: The heads had spray bar bars in them already, sounded like a good idea to use them. On my advice, he had S&S in San Leandro do the final machining and complicated engine build for him.
We took it out to sand mountain for it's maiden voyage, but the oil pressure would drop to almost nill after a 15second, 100mph blast up the mountain. Oil pressure would return after making our turn, and coast for a little way.
During the engine's first 'well baby check up', S&S found that the rod bearings were smeared and about to expire, but everything else looked happy. We talked about the symtoms, possible causes, bounced ideas around. It turns out the spray bar feed lines were supposed to have a brass restricter jet in them. Once installed, life got good, REAL GOOD! The thing makes 400hp and is a blast!
| yamaducci wrote: |
Found this pic from Turbotom on shoptalkforums.
The spray bars use .040" holes
I would like to know how the -3 fitting connects with the brake line tube and how it is terminated at the other side not shown.
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shag55
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Joined: June 28, 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Chino Ca.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Good stuff here! I have a set of Autocraft heads for my unlimited street motor and have though of setting up a spray bar on the 1/2 side to help in cooling the springs as well as the heads themselves. With this being a street/race project keeping the temps down in the heads is a priority. I had Mike build me a 2.5 stg pump for this project. I will likely use a rather large oil tank as I can since the more heat is drawn out of the heads the hotter the oil temps will run as I have seen this with the porsche squirters as well. I have a vary efficient PWR oil cooler as well. Though with such a large oil reserve it may need I add a oil heater as well.
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TomSimon
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Posts: 753
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| fastone wrote: |
Tom don't take this wrong, Just thought I would clear up a few things.
Auto-Craft midget engines never scavenged valve covers, you would need a 4 stage pump for that.
As you can't tee scavenge lines.
And yes I know Bill worked for for him for 12 years are so. |
no problem Fastone... If you say AC never set there engines up that way, i believe you, I stand corrected. Good to know there is someone on here who worked for Bill. When VW midgets were popular, AC was thee engine to have, usually were running up front when I used to watch the midgets at Baylands in the early 80's 
You in-fact can, and drag racers very often do scavenge oil through a tee, one line from each head, using Bill's stage and a half wet sump pump. V8 guys will often run several.
I'm curious as to why you guys wouldn't have done something similar... the dry sump AC engine I had, used an AC 3-stage pump. The case had two pickup fittings |
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yamaducci
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Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2373
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Found this pic from Turbotom on shoptalkforums.
The spray bars use .040" holes
I would like to know how the -3 fitting connects with the brake line tube and how it is terminated at the other side not shown.
_________________
-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested. |
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yamaducci
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2373
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Tom brings up a good point and the reason I have considered running the spray bars in my Competition Eliminator head Engine. As many know they run hot with 6 fins even in an open engine-bay buggy. The real problem I am trying to solve with the use of the spray bars; other than reducing heat in the spring area, is to lube the Autocraft needle rockers. These bearings/shafts have only seen a total of 500 miles of street driving and a few trips down the strip yet they have pitted the shaft on the 1/2 side. Now I am not positive when the most damage is occuring since I am running K800 Springs. Is it at idle and low RPM when no real oil-splashing is occurring or is it under higher RPM load with still not enough oil flow?
I suspect that since the 3/4 side did not have issues and normally fills with oil under load, that the 1/2 side is seeing it's damage at high RPM and heavy load with lack of oil flow. It may be only necessary to spray the 1/2 side or spray both side once the pressure reaches a certain PSI or RPM load. For reference I am running a 1.5 stage Bugpack dry sump this time. I also have photos of my rocker arm modification to get more oil to the bearings. If interested take a look at my gallery. I have not mocked up the spray bars.
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My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested.
Last edited by yamaducci on Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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