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DIY Front Air Conditioning
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whyyes.travel
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
I have read that a number of those removing the factory Vanagon air/heater....


That's a great comparison between the two. Thanks so much Howesight. I would also consider your kit if you have anything on the market.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:19 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
Hey KHughes:

My system for sealing out ambient air ingress could be perfect, but it is not perfect at the moment. The reason is that I used an axle-type steel rod at one end of the flaps, instead of at the middle of the flaps. The exterior air pushes against the flap and pushes the flap, the bowden cable and the sliding lever on my HVAC lever panel and allows ambient air in. The kludge I use is to put a rubber band on that lever and attach the other end to one of the diff-lock knobs - - not very elegant. I need a better closing mechanism.

I am going to remove the dash sometime in the near future for a number of things needing attention and will revise the closing mechanism then. If you can place enough force on the HVAC lever, it will keep the ambient air out. In the meantime, I have reduced the force acting against this mechanism by another kludge, duct taping the whole air inlet screen closed except for about a 2.5" by 2.5" square area left open.


I don't know how you swung your air shut off door, but on my heater mod to stop the Ram Air ingress, I hinged the door to swing out into the stream of air.
At speed with the flap closed the Ram Air closes it even tighter perfectly stopping the air flow.
I had zero Ram Air ingress.

When I did open the flap for air I don't recall it ever being blown shut, but honestly? I rarely opened it, and when I did it was just a smidge. I probably only ever opened it as much as the commercially available door leaks air when closed?

Dave
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Hey KHughes:

My system for sealing out ambient air ingress could be perfect, but it is not perfect at the moment. The reason is that I used an axle-type steel rod at one end of the flaps, instead of at the middle of the flaps. The exterior air pushes against the flap and pushes the flap, the bowden cable and the sliding lever on my HVAC lever panel and allows ambient air in. The kludge I use is to put a rubber band on that lever and attach the other end to one of the diff-lock knobs - - not very elegant. I need a better closing mechanism.

I am going to remove the dash sometime in the near future for a number of things needing attention and will revise the closing mechanism then. If you can place enough force on the HVAC lever, it will keep the ambient air out. In the meantime, I have reduced the force acting against this mechanism by another kludge, duct taping the whole air inlet screen closed except for about a 2.5" by 2.5" square area left open.
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Kombi///M3 wrote:
Hey Howesight.. any chance I can have a look at your set up?
I like your set up better than the others. Do you have a kit for sale?
I've read your old post and thought you've come up with. A kit.
Cheers.


Hi Kombi: PM sent.
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khughes
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
In my DIY evaporator, I used an Audi A4 (B5 generation) evaporator and a Toyota pickup/4Runner blower fan. Together, these can freeze you out of your Vanagon. I should say, however, that the way I set my system up, with only 4 vent outlets, results in very high air speed coming out the vents. This is great for cooling you quickly, but over the course of a few hours, leads to very dry skin on your face. This is a common-place in sailing and other similar activities and just requires some cream or moisturizer on your exposed skin. OEM systems use more vent outlets to achieve the same cooling with lower air speeds out the vents, to achieve the same overall volume of chilled air.

Two things that can ruin an otherwise sound AC installation are:

1. Failure to seal out hot ambient air. For that, use the system made by Chris Corkins of Vanistan, found here: https://intrepidoverland.com/shop/cabin-air-control/ Chris calls it his Cabin Air Control Kit;


Interesting. I have an older version of Chris's kit and I wouldn't call it fully sealed at highway speeds. Your mod looks interesting - how well does it work for sealing at 65-75mph? Any additional pics?

I have a spare heater box sitting on my WorkMate now for modifications to fully seal external air, but still cogitating on the exact method. Any additional challenges you ran into would be valuable as well. It doesn't take much 118-120 Deg F air infiltration to make a huge comfort difference.

Thanks!
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Kombi///M3
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Hey Howesight.. any chance I can have a look at your set up?
I like your set up better than the others. Do you have a kit for sale?
I've read your old post and thought you've come up with. A kit.
Cheers.
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

I have read that a number of those removing the factory Vanagon air/heater box and installing the Vintage Air evaporator and associated parts (or the SmallCar kit based on those parts) have found that those units were lacking in winter heat. A minority of those using the Vintage Ari/Smallcar system were unimpressed with the cooling power of those sytems, but most were happy.

To the extent that the cooling performance of those systems was lacking or mediocre, I think that the size of the blower fan used in those systems and the restictive corrugated flexible hose supplied may be to blame. I think that the size of the evaporator core is likely not the problem.

In my DIY evaporator, I used an Audi A4 (B5 generation) evaporator and a Toyota pickup/4Runner blower fan. Together, these can freeze you out of your Vanagon. I should say, however, that the way I set my system up, with only 4 vent outlets, results in very high air speed coming out the vents. This is great for cooling you quickly, but over the course of a few hours, leads to very dry skin on your face. This is a common-place in sailing and other similar activities and just requires some cream or moisturizer on your exposed skin. OEM systems use more vent outlets to achieve the same cooling with lower air speeds out the vents, to achieve the same overall volume of chilled air.

If I had any concerns that the system that emerged from my months of fiddling and experimenting had issues, I would clearly explain those concerns. The only one I have is the dry-skin/air speed problem.

Two things that can ruin an otherwise sound AC installation are:

1. Failure to seal out hot ambient air. For that, use the system made by Chris Corkins of Vanistan, found here: https://intrepidoverland.com/shop/cabin-air-control/ Chris calls it his Cabin Air Control Kit;

In my case, I cobbled this together:

CLOSED:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



OPEN:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


2. A foolproof means of keeping all hot coolant out of your front heater core in summer. I made my own vacuum-electric heater hose shut off. Chris sells a nifty coolant valve that is a lot less difficult to make and install than my DIY approach. Here is a link to Chris' valve:
https://intrepidoverland.com/shop/t3-vanagon-front-heater-valve/
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whyyes.travel
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
I first got this DIY system running back in March of 2013. Now, 8 years later, I have had my first problem. I ran the Westy SVX engine yesterday for a while (moving it out of the garage to work on another vehicle) and let it run for 30 or 40 minutes to get rid of the lifter tick. I switched on the AC system after a few minutes to let the refrigerant oil circulate and oil the compressor seal. I suspect the accumulator since PAG oil dripping onto the driveway was the symptom.

Well, it seems that somewhere in the vicinity of the AC accumulator, either the accumulator, a fitting or a hose sprang a leak. Crying or Very sad

I will have to investigate later today.


Thank you so much for your DIY documentation @Howesight and @iulian. Both look great. I'm considering the front AC option since I live in central valley of CA.

Would you guys recommend trying to utilize the existing front blower? Have any other compatible evaporator coils come on the market since?
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

I first got this DIY system running back in March of 2013. Now, 8 years later, I have had my first problem. I ran the Westy SVX engine yesterday for a while (moving it out of the garage to work on another vehicle) and let it run for 30 or 40 minutes to get rid of the lifter tick. I switched on the AC system after a few minutes to let the refrigerant oil circulate and oil the compressor seal. I suspect the accumulator since PAG oil dripping onto the driveway was the symptom.

Well, it seems that somewhere in the vicinity of the AC accumulator, either the accumulator, a fitting or a hose sprang a leak. Crying or Very sad

I will have to investigate later today.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

The 4KW is the cooling coil rating, no elecrical consumption there.
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Abscate
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:28 am    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
A while back I purchased a NostalgicAir UD-110 under dash unit.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...p;start=20

I just measured it and it's size is darn near identical to the Diavia unit posted above.

So, if you want to try this mod, the UD-110 is on the shelf and ready to ship from Nostalgic Air.

It's probably the same unit......... Keep in mind my dimensions are fast and dirty.

Diavia specs.......

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My UD-110
1" = 25.4mm

9 1/2" deep. 241 mm

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


16" wide. 406mm

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


5" high. 127mm

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dave


4 kW cooling capacity with 120 watts draw?

No.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:18 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
I thought the raised floor was an '82/'83 diesel-only item.


Also have it on my '91 Syncro 16, 2.1wbx.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

markd89 wrote:


So, to confirm, it's the later Vanagon which only have rear AC but still manage to get a good chill going for the people up front?


The later Vanagons have a long center duct mounted along the interior roof going all the way to the front where there was a plenum mounted the full width the front windshield.
there were vents about midway to allow the cold air to be vented into the center of the cabin and vent along the top of the windshield plenum.
It has been reported by many that removing the center duct increases the air blowing out of the rear mounted AC. Basically, the vents and the duct slow down the air.The blast from the rear is able to cool down the front without having to be guided through the duct.
On the Westfalia they could not have the center duct so they used a distribution plenum with a lot of vents.

You can usually see the center ducts being advertised in the Classifieds.
Another drawback to the center ducting is they are old and getting brittle so they are cracking and in some cases falling down.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:57 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

OddN wrote:


Could the center floor duct be a good addition to get cold air from a front ac to the back.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




One drawback to using the center floor duct is that cold air does not rise, it stays down low.
So for a better circulation of the air it really is better if the cold air comes out near the roof or able to be directed upwards to the top of the interior so that it naturally sinks to the floor cooling the hot ambient air as it does so.
However, if you pump enough cold air through the center floor ducting it will do something!
You could create some louvers for the discharge vents of the center air duct to aim the cold air upwards.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

buspor63 wrote:

Just thinking out loud here, but didn't some bay window vans come with A/C where the evaporator was mounted overhead, just behind the driver? I know the first Vanagons up to 1985 used a similar system.


That is good thinking. There was such a thing. It's really big and heavy and so I'm trying to avoid it but I see your point - the more stock one can be, the eaiser things usually go.

So, to confirm, it's the later Vanagon which only have rear AC but still manage to get a good chill going for the people up front?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

markd89 wrote:
I'm visiting from the Bay Window forum. I have a TDI powered 78 Bus and am considering putting in AC. I have some different challenges, but many that are are the same. My main question is how much cooling is needed to get the large interior space down to a cool temp ad keep it there.

I would implement it as recirculating inside air.

I'm trying to eyeball how big of an evaporator is needed. Consider driving on a 100+ *F day. Does anyone have an idea of how much BTU of cooling is needed to get the interior temp down to 70*F or so? Can I get by with a 13K BTU after-market evaporator or do I need to fit something bigger?

I'd appreciate hearing any suggestions & experiences..

Thanks!
Mark


Just thinking out loud here, but didn't some bay window vans come with A/C where the evaporator was mounted overhead, just behind the driver? I know the first Vanagons up to 1985 used a similar system.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:

If your AC is front-mounted, then it will be very effective for cooling the
front-seat occupants.

<snip>
Here is a link to the evaporator unit section of the Nostalgic AC website:

http://nostalgicac.com/evaporator-units/underdash-evaporators.html

They have a good selection and you might find one that fits your needs nicely.


Howesight, thanks much for your message. If the stock Audi A4 unit is providing enough cooling for you, I can probably extrapolate that a typical aftermarket (13000 btu) evaporator would work for me as I'd suspect they're about the same capacity. That was my main concern.

The nostaligac units look nice, but I am limited on the front to 8-9" of depth, but I have found other aftermarket ones that would fit.

djkeev wrote:
The Vanagon recirculates interior air only, is mounted in the rear above the back window.

I've no idea of the btu's but the Evapoator coil is about 2ft long and 6" square.

When working well it effectively cools the interior ti the point if wanting a sweater.


djkeev, this is great info too. 24x6x6=864 cu" which from the little that I know seems like a pretty huge evaporator. The fact that you can chill a Vanagon with just that in the back and no evaporator in front, does give me another option. Now, I have more measuring to do...

Thanks again and more ideas, please do tell!

Mark
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
I thought the raised floor was an '82/'83 diesel-only item.


I had one in my 87 doka 5 seater to get heat to the rear of the cabin.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
I thought the raised floor was an '82/'83 diesel-only item.


In Europe it was available on early gas models, but non-turbo diesel models also had the same low floor, so probably available there too. It was not available on automatic vans or on turbo diesels.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY Front Air Conditioning Reply with quote

I thought the raised floor was an '82/'83 diesel-only item.
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