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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 36422
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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 Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Looking at some google images, I think you are right. Once VW went from the "fixed arm/external button" design for the dimmer, to the "move the whole arm/contacts inside ring portion" design, those parts look common. So perhaps careful reworking with parts form a new $40 Bug switch may work out as a cheap alternative for an otherwise expensive on-year-only part. In the next few weeks I may try just that and report back. Thanks! |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23598
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
| Whadayaknow, yesterday my '71's TS switch broke. It was in the usual place: one of the little tits the W-spring bears on broke off. |
I think those little "tit" parts are all the same thru the years. Yes, they're left and right handed. |
That's a help! Any guess as to whether the more common Bug units use the same fragile plastic parts? I am thinking if I buy the cheapest (most common?) new unit that shares them, I can cobble together a functionally new unit for the T3. |
I'm willing to bet that bugs, buses, and ghias used the same switches and or parts of the switches. You have to remember VW was a little ahead of the competition when it came to using the same part in multiple vehicles. I'd even bet parts of those switches even found their way into rabbits and dashers of the late 70's, along with bugs until the end of production.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 36422
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
| Whadayaknow, yesterday my '71's TS switch broke. It was in the usual place: one of the little tits the W-spring bears on broke off. |
I think those little "tit" parts are all the same thru the years. Yes, they're left and right handed. |
That's a help! Any guess as to whether the more common Bug units use the same fragile plastic parts? I am thinking if I buy the cheapest (most common?) new unit that shares them, I can cobble together a functionally new unit for the T3. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23598
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| Whadayaknow, yesterday my '71's TS switch broke. It was in the usual place: one of the little tits the W-spring bears on broke off. |
I think those little "tit" parts are all the same thru the years. Yes, they're left and right handed.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2400
Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
Whadayaknow, yesterday my '71's TS switch broke. It was in the usual place: one of the little tits the W-spring bears on broke off.
Fortunately, I had a NOS spare (and am now looking for another). I took some pics before installing it.
It is PN 311-953-513 according to the box. I was actually surprised to find the "extra" contacts for the Euro parking lights. I expected my USA model to be different. Either I have a Euro spare switch, or the USA models just either clipped the wires or left them disconnected. Anyone know for sure?
I will leave my side markers wired as turn signal/4-way flashers, though it is interesting to find I could wire them up as Euros if my ignition switch has the grey wire, which it does IIRC.
I lubed the sliding white plastic parts with silicone spray, and the contacts for the horn with Bosch grease. I'm not sure those are the right lubricants, but they seem to be doing their job of eliminating friction. Given the fragility of those plastic tits, I didn't want a petroleum product but wanted them lubed. And I'm not sure how insulate the Bosch grease is, but the horn works and the rotating is silent, indicating no friction. Any better suggestions? |
I just replaced mine, and both my old one and the NOS replacement (311-953-513D), had all the extra wires. I'm assuming the replacement switches had all the extra wires, so the switch could be used with Euro or US cars.
I used Dow Corning DC7 silicone grease on mine -- it's like the dielectric grease you buy at a FLAPS, and it won't affect nylon. I greased the same places you did, no problems so far.
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71 Elm Green FI A/T Squareback |
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ALLWAGONS
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2000
Posts: 4753
Location: Pasadena CA/DTLA soon China
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
| I used a NOS complete column , I didn't touch any of the wires other than reconnect. |
NOS for what year?
And god only knows how a PO wired the car... no end to PO "creativity" and so putting it back the way the PO had it does not mean it's back to stock.
Not baggin' on you, but I've never seen those wired that way from the factory or even by a PO... no reason for it, either. Sounds like someone miswired the late standard side marker (that were built into the front turn signal lenses) wires into your non-USA side marker lamps. |
It is probably a late '65 or '66 column sine the contacts on the column were not Bakelite but plastic and My wiring is the original unhacked and uncut. Easy for me to replace everything with NOS units, just plug n play! 
_________________
I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.
I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.
Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.
Everything sounds good on paper! |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 36422
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Whadayaknow, yesterday my '71's TS switch broke. It was in the usual place: one of the little tits the W-spring bears on broke off.
Fortunately, I had a NOS spare (and am now looking for another). I took some pics before installing it.
It is PN 311-953-513 according to the box. I was actually surprised to find the "extra" contacts for the Euro parking lights. I expected my USA model to be different. Either I have a Euro spare switch, or the USA models just either clipped the wires or left them disconnected. Anyone know for sure?
I will leave my side markers wired as turn signal/4-way flashers, though it is interesting to find I could wire them up as Euros if my ignition switch has the grey wire, which it does IIRC.
I lubed the sliding white plastic parts with silicone spray, and the contacts for the horn with Bosch grease. I'm not sure those are the right lubricants, but they seem to be doing their job of eliminating friction. Given the fragility of those plastic tits, I didn't want a petroleum product but wanted them lubed. And I'm not sure how insulate the Bosch grease is, but the horn works and the rotating is silent, indicating no friction. Any better suggestions?
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4513
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
| Did I mention that my side markers light up even with the ignition on. So while driving, they light up but don't blink when I use the blinker. Good enough for me. |
Interesting, this is non-standard behavior. Those wired as original ONLY work with they key off, and those as turn signals ONLY with the key on (though 4-ways work any time). You must have them wired as parking lights but lack the grey-wire connection at the ignition switch, and must just grab a connection that is hot with the key on. |
That is definitely not standard behaviour for the side marker lights.
If you have the 10 pole fuse box, which slot is it connected to? Anything else connected to that same slot? IIRC, there should be grey wires at both ends of the fused connection. |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 36422
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
| I used a NOS complete column , I didn't touch any of the wires other than reconnect. |
NOS for what year?
And god only knows how a PO wired the car... no end to PO "creativity" and so putting it back the way the PO had it does not mean it's back to stock.
Not baggin' on you, but I've never seen those wired that way from the factory or even by a PO... no reason for it, either. Sounds like someone miswired the late standard side marker (that were built into the front turn signal lenses) wires into your non-USA side marker lamps. |
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notchboy
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22690
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Both my old 62 notch and the 63 worked the same.
Ignition off - key out - push down the turn signal to illuminate that side - sidemarker. They did not come one when the ignition was on.
The need for these from Germany is for small narrow alleys, roads where they tell you to turn these on so oncoming cars can see your car. The side facing the road is marked with that sides marker (sidemarker). I remember seeing cars lit while stumbling back from the pub in Mainz. 
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| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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ALLWAGONS
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2000
Posts: 4753
Location: Pasadena CA/DTLA soon China
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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I used a NOS complete column , I didn't touch any of the wires other than reconnect.
_________________
I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.
I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.
Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.
Everything sounds good on paper! |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 36422
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
| Did I mention that my side markers light up even with the ignition on. So while driving, they light up but don't blink when I use the blinker. Good enough for me. |
Interesting, this is non-standard behavior. Those wired as original ONLY work with they key off, and those as turn signals ONLY with the key on (though 4-ways work any time). You must have them wired as parking lights but lack the grey-wire connection at the ignition switch, and must just grab a connection that is hot with the key on. |
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ALLWAGONS
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2000
Posts: 4753
Location: Pasadena CA/DTLA soon China
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Did I mention that my side markers light up even with the ignition on. So while driving, they light up but don't blink when I use the blinker. Good enough for me.
_________________
I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.
I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.
Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.
Everything sounds good on paper! |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 36422
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Aha! Got it.
I think there has been a real attempt to save the older Type 3 cars in the last few years, so the parking lights are showing up. Then you have people like me with newer cars that like them and retrofit them. Pretty soon we will find "RARE vintage fender w/o parking lights" ads in the "official whine" forum!  |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4513
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
My original 12-fuse '71 fuse-box cover has the parking light icon.
Were the Type 3 parking lights un-fused before '67 like the old Bug in-bucket parking lights were? |
This was my point. In 67, the Type 3 got a 12 slot fuse box and Type 3 specific fuse cover that indicates the location of the fuse specifically for the side parking lights.
311 937 505 F, Fuse box (12 fuses) without cover from Ch. No. 311 000 001
311 937 505 G, Fuse box (12 fuses) without cover from Ch. No. 312 2000 001
311 937 555 B, Cover -Fuse box (12 fuses) from Ch. No. 317 000 001 to 319 500 000
311 937 555 C, Cover -Fuse box, (12 point) from Ch. No. 310 2000 001 to 310 2500 000
111 937 555 D, Cover -Fuse box (12 fuses) from Ch. No. 311 2000 001
311 937 505 A, Fuse box (10 fuses) without cover to Ch. No. 316 500 000
111 937 555 A, Cover -Fuse box (10 fuses) to Ch. No. 316 500 000
Prior to 67, the fuse box was a 10 slot and the 4th fuse from the right was dedicated to the side parking lights but the fuse cover was a Type 1 part-hence no picture of the side parking light on the cover. The wiring diagram above is for 66 and earlier Type 3s.
(edited to add part numbers)
Last edited by ataraxia on Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:09 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 36422
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:46 am Post subject: |
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My original 12-fuse '71 fuse-box cover has the parking light icon.
Were the Type 3 parking lights un-fused before '67 like the old Bug in-bucket parking lights were?
EDIT: I see they were in fact fused.
Last edited by KTPhil on Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4513
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
In items 10 and 11, the 4th symbol from the left is a picture of a pair if side markers (parking lights). This cover was also used for USA models which lacked the side markers.
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Notice that the 10 slot fuse cover doesn't show the side marker lights? I bet there are more 66 and earlier cars with side markers than 67 and later but with the cover being a Type 1 part, they're not represented on the cover.
The wiring diagram shows that the early cars had the grey wire at the 4th fuse from the right:
The later cars (67 and later) with the 12 slot fuse box show the "P" wire at the 6th slot from the right which jives with the covers shown. These covers are Type 3 parts.
I've found a few errors in the parts book so I find a little comfort in confirming the accuracy of the parts vs. the book. |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 36422
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: |
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In items 10 and 11, the 4th symbol from the left is a picture of a pair if side markers (parking lights). This cover was also used for USA models which lacked the side markers.
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4513
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
| Woreign wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
| 95% of the ignitions I find that are NOS are the euro version with the grey P wire. I can't imagine they made too many of the US only ignitions so the wires were likely 'left somewhere', although I thought they were hot from the ignition to the fuse panel. It's been a long time since I've screwed around with it specifically so I don't really remember. The grey wire is easy enough to remove (heat up the solder on the back of the switch and it comes right out)...or they could have just connected it to the fuse panel and left it there without the other side hooked up. |
I recently discovered this loose grey wire under the dash and wondered what it did or where it goes. Looking at the wiring diagram in the manual, it connects to an unused terminal in the fuse box. If you're saying that it is a hot wire, I better reconnect it or tape it up... |
I'm almost positive it's a hot wire. IIRC, it goes to the #4 fuse slot. Maybe you could check it with a meter and confirm my suspicion. I'm wrong quite a lot as well.  |
The grey wire would be "hot" whenever the key is turned off.
I can't remember if the ignition has to be in the lock position or just off so that would be something to check with a meter. |
Yeah, I should have specified the 'off' part...I am also unsure of which position the lock is in when the wire becomes hot.
Thanks for confirming! |
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 72000
Location: Phoenix 602
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| Woreign wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
| 95% of the ignitions I find that are NOS are the euro version with the grey P wire. I can't imagine they made too many of the US only ignitions so the wires were likely 'left somewhere', although I thought they were hot from the ignition to the fuse panel. It's been a long time since I've screwed around with it specifically so I don't really remember. The grey wire is easy enough to remove (heat up the solder on the back of the switch and it comes right out)...or they could have just connected it to the fuse panel and left it there without the other side hooked up. |
I recently discovered this loose grey wire under the dash and wondered what it did or where it goes. Looking at the wiring diagram in the manual, it connects to an unused terminal in the fuse box. If you're saying that it is a hot wire, I better reconnect it or tape it up... |
I'm almost positive it's a hot wire. IIRC, it goes to the #4 fuse slot. Maybe you could check it with a meter and confirm my suspicion. I'm wrong quite a lot as well. |
The grey wire would be "hot" whenever the key is turned off.
I can't remember if the ignition has to be in the lock position or just off so that would be something to check with a meter.
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