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goffoz
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Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 1486
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 Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Also just to recap
My Aux battery setup started as a GW kit.
What I learned from the forum is;
Plug the Aux battery + output, into fuse three(86 and later) this powers Acc. only( clock,radio,interior lights)..also lets you use solar to charge the Aux only
thru the cig plug. while parked
Run a heavy gauge wire direct from the +start battery pole, to the solenoid input pole (fuse it at the start batt pole)..this was a huge improvement over the GW fuse panel connection, improve Aux batt charging dramatically, and easier to do.
Hope this helps someone.
...BTW GW was very helpful verifying these changes when I called them for input.
..maybe they should offer a improved Aux batt kit for us tintoppers
Anyhow , I'll miss the little solenoids "Boink" under my seat..but I think a different combiner is in my future |
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goffoz
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Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 1486
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
If you connect the relay coil up to a 12v battery and measure the amperage it draws you can see if it is pulling more than it is supposed to. It should pull less than 1 amp, something like .7 - .8 amp. If the relay is ok you can still use it and simply connect it up to an "X" circuit control source instead of to the alternator blue wire circuit. For 86-91 vans this is a pretty simple change.
Mark
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Ok pulled the solenoid out of the van, and hooked it up to my power supply
If I put power on the trigger pole it operates perfectly, and closes the circuit on the 2 power connections.
If I ohm it across the trigger pole to the case I get 0.7
How should I do the Amp test?
..and by X circuit ..Do you mean the spades on the right side of the panel(power with engine on)..and Yes 86 van
And thanks for all your help ...I'll probably go with the blue seas unit, but I'd like to understand why this failed and how?
Thanks |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17147
Location: Brookeville, MD
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goffoz
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Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 1486
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Mmm probably a good idea...will go nicely with the new upgraded Alternator
But I'll miss my little solenoid going "Boink" when I shut off the engine. |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10375
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17147
Location: Brookeville, MD
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10375
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 5:22 am Post subject: |
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I'm glad you resolved things to the point where your alternator is charging again. One of my complaints about the GoWesty aux battery charging setup has long been the large extra load it puts on the blue wire circuit in some installations.
However, as much as I don't like the GoWesty clunker relay you have not quite proven that it is faulty and causing your problem because of the fault. Maybe, maybe not. It still could be that something else is wrong and the added load of the clunker relay is just making it much worse. If you connect the relay coil up to a 12v battery and measure the amperage it draws you can see if it is pulling more than it is supposed to. It should pull less than 1 amp, something like .7 - .8 amp. If the relay is ok you can still use it and simply connect it up to an "X" circuit control source instead of to the alternator blue wire circuit. For 86-91 vans this is a pretty simple change.
Mark
| goffoz wrote: |
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
| It is possible that something else connected to the blue wire is dragging the voltage down to zero.(GoWesty relay? try unplugging the blue wire from the GW relay and measure the alternator blue wire again) |
Bullseye  ...thankyou Mark...I was ready to stop trying and start drinking,
you've saved another liver
Disconnected the GW. Aux system completely..pulled the + supply and the - battery, and the blue trigger from the solenoid.
Now I have engine start, batt light out, 14.5V at the Alt+ and at the start battery...
Now
..why did the GW Solenoid fail? why is this the result?
I tested the GW solenoid by triggering it isolated, and it works as it should.
OK so somehow the GW solenoid is now a Ground fault(per bently)
How/why?
This was a system in perfect working order..20 days ago?
Does a dead Alt, Kill a GW solenoid???
Stumped ?
Thank you Mark, I now have a good circuit. for my start/run battery
..just gotta figure out the Aux batt..conundrum  ....... |
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goffoz
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Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 1486
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
That is an indication of a problem. The blue wire is supposed to supply a small voltage FROM the dash to the alternator to energize the magnetic field so when the alternator starts turning it will also start charging.
It is possible that the blue wire is connected to the wrong place on the alternator. Can you post a photo? |
checked and double checked
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
It is possible that the blue wire has a break in it somewhere between the dash and the alternator.
It is possible that the blue wire splice connection inside the engine compartment wiring box is unplugged or making poor contact. |
Both my fears..Ohmed the wires everything showed Zero V or .0xV
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
| It is possible that something else connected to the blue wire is dragging the voltage down to zero.(GoWesty relay? try unplugging the blue wire from the GW relay and measure the alternator blue wire again) |
Bullseye ...thankyou Mark...I was ready to stop trying and start drinking,
you've saved another liver
Disconnected the GW. Aux system completely..pulled the + supply and the - battery, and the blue trigger from the solenoid.
Now I have engine start, batt light out, 14.5V at the Alt+ and at the start battery...
Now
..why did the GW Solenoid fail? why is this the result?
I tested the GW solenoid by triggering it isolated, and it works as it should.
OK so somehow the GW solenoid is now a Ground fault(per bently)
How/why?
This was a system in perfect working order..20 days ago?
Does a dead Alt, Kill a GW solenoid???
Stumped ?
Thank you Mark, I now have a good circuit. for my start/run battery
..just gotta figure out the Aux batt..conundrum
| goffoz wrote: |
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
| Now, with the key still on, move the probe from the red wire stud to the small blue wire attachment point metal. What voltage do you see? |
0.00V key on, engine not running...do you want engine running? |
[/quote] |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10375
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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That is an indication of a problem. The blue wire is supposed to supply a small voltage FROM the dash to the alternator to energize the magnetic field so when the alternator starts turning it will also start charging.
It is possible that the blue wire is connected to the wrong place on the alternator. Can you post a photo?
It is possible that the blue wire has a break in it somewhere between the dash and the alternator.
It is possible that the blue wire splice connection inside the engine compartment wiring box is unplugged or making poor contact.
It is possible that something else connected to the blue wire is dragging the voltage down to zero.(GoWesty relay? try unplugging the blue wire from the GW relay and measure the alternator blue wire again)
Mark
| goffoz wrote: |
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
| Now, with the key still on, move the probe from the red wire stud to the small blue wire attachment point metal. What voltage do you see? |
0.00V key on, engine not running...do you want engine running? |
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goffoz
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Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 1486
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
| Look at the back of the alternator where the small blue wire is supposed to attach. Is the small blue wire attached? If you feel the wire does it seem sound? |
All good very sound
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
| When you just turn on the key does the alt/bat warning led come on solid? |
Yes
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
| With a voltmeter put one probe on clean engine metal and the other probe on the main threaded stud on the back of the alternator, where the red wires attach. Is there 12 volts there? |
12.4(same as the battery)
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
| Now, with the key still on, move the probe from the red wire stud to the small blue wire attachment point metal. What voltage do you see? |
0.00V key on, engine not running...do you want engine running? |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10375
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Look at the back of the alternator where the small blue wire is supposed to attach. Is the small blue wire attached? If you feel the wire does it seem sound?
When you just turn on the key does the alt/bat warning led come on solid?
With a voltmeter put one probe on clean engine metal and the other probe on the main threaded stud on the back of the alternator, where the red wires attach. Is there 12 volts there?
Now, with the key still on, move the probe from the red wire stud to the small blue wire attachment point metal. What voltage do you see?
Mark |
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goffoz
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Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 1486
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
We know the alternator is not charging. But we don't know that it is because the alternator is broken. The blue wire circuit feeds key-on power to the alternator to initiate charging. Make sure this activation power is getting to the alternator. If it is, then blame the alternator.
Mark |
Ok how do I trouble shoot this, obviously I have nothing on this circuit, Is there a fuse? where is it?.
Bently is not showing anything
I have evrything open right now, It all looks visually fine, engine starts and runs fine. |
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goffoz
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Posts: 1486
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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So now I'm completely stumped 
Took the OEM alternator in and had it tested at two(2) stores, Oriellys and Autozone,both confirmed that it failed...watched them do the test.
Purchased a remanufactured (and tested..I watched) unit from Oriellys
installed it.
WTF 
battery light still ON
NO volts on the blue wire...at the Alt, or at the solenoid for the GW Aux battery.
No volts(12.8 battery voltage) at the start battery, no volts from the +termal at the Alt to Grnd
So this is a good tested Alt installed correctly, good belt (I can see it spinning)
This is a system that was working perfectly before the bodywork.
All fuses are good, all the wiring looks good...no burns no breaks.
...grounds are good...no sign of damage.
The Alt test confirmed the original was bad
...New Alt is confirmed good
Unfortunately after install of the new unit, I'm getting the same result in the car...no charge
Tracked the path in the bently(61) leads to a diode in the foil?visually looks fine...Bently suggests a grnd fault somewhere on the circuit. any ideas?
What am I missing here??? |
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:28 am Post subject: |
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The blue wire frying due to some welding on the back end of the Van is about as remote as the alternator frying--
But yea--take a look at it prior to yanking the alternator, just for the heck of it.
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T.K. |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 18760
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 6:59 am Post subject: |
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You can use a 12 volt test light in place of the blue wire for exciting the alternator. Clip the test light to the positive side of the van's power. Probe the terminal where the blue wire attaches, the test light should light. Note: It will also light if you touch the case of the alternator.
With the test light illuminated touching the stud where the blue wire attaches, start the engine and rev the engine, the test light should go out. What is happening is the stud acts like a ground when the engine is off and the key is on. That illuminates the bulb in the dash. When the engine starts, charging voltage is fed out the stud where the blue wire attaches and cancels out the warning light. 12 volts on both sides of the bulb. The load of the warning light is what excites the alternator into charging.
A glowing Alternator light indicates a " difference" in voltage on the two legs of the warning lamp.
There is such a thing as coincidence. You may be experiencing coincidence. Mark is suggesting before replacing the alternator to ensure the wiring is correct. That makes sense to me. |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10375
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 4:57 am Post subject: |
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We know the alternator is not charging. But we don't know that it is because the alternator is broken. The blue wire circuit feeds key-on power to the alternator to initiate charging. Make sure this activation power is getting to the alternator. If it is, then blame the alternator.
Mark |
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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With the engine running--you should see 14 volts--14.1, 14.2 no problem.
Your not getting enough juice.
That's why the engine quit when you yanked the cable to the battery.
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goffoz
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Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 1486
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
Just to re-affirm.
You saw zero juice on your tester when you checked out the power supply to the battery, and when you ynaked the cable the engine stut down.
Trust me--you've done the end of the road test--the alternator is not putting out any juice--
The engine would have remained running if it was.
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I saw 12 V at the battery with the engine running, pulled the + battery still says 12V at the battery..engine stops
Seems Alt failure, syncronys to the body work, no fault, just bad luck, for me :(bummer |
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goffoz
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Posts: 1486
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Because the GW aux battery relay usually also attaches to the blue wire circuit it complicates some of the diagnosis with respect to the alternator warning light.
Mark
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Yeah ...my first suspicion was that the GW splice had cut the blue wire. I uncoupled the splice and checked the wire..its intact.
GW says I should see +/- 10V at the blue wire,on the solenoid.
checking that in the AM.
One of the bodyshop guys came by tonight, and tried to track it down, they do seem to know what they are doing..but have no clue on this.
..they did say van was fine friday, when they moved it..no bat light
This is such a sudden odd issue..I don't want to just throw a Alternator at it till I can understand it |
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Just to re-affirm.
You saw zero juice on your tester when you checked out the power supply to the battery, and when you ynaked the cable the engine stut down.
Trust me--you've done the end of the road test--the alternator is not putting out any juice--
The engine would have remained running if it was.
Just as would happen in any other normal vehicle.
Now--Like I mentioned.
If the alternator got wacked just by welding on the body, the guy doing the welding would have had to have the ground to the welder hooked up direct to the alternator, and have the ignition switch on.
I really doubt that this fried it--
You can file a complaint, but I think they are going to tell you the same thing--
Good Luck,
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