CV Joint Dished Washer--Why does Bentley say to discard?

[raygreenwood]

Yep....pretty much the same method.

At a later point in time, having some snqp rings with pointed ends in aome kits yhat do not work well wth the duckbl pliers I have taken my dremel with a diamond point and made a small notch on each end and can use pin type snap ring pliers.

Ray

[SGKent]

[Wildthings]

When I did run the concave washers, I would use a set of duckbill snaring pliers to get them on the shaft and then select a socket that would fit over the shaft but sit at least somewhat on the snap ring and give the socket a hit with a 3-4 pound hammer to momentarily flatten the concave washer. and let the snap ring pop into place. I would then work my way around the snap ring tapping it fully into place. This made the job quite easy.

[SGKent]

makes sense. From 1975 at the delete, to 1979, the last North American year of the bay, VW sold 1,071,764 buses. If there was a problem with the delete, it surely would have shown up in their technical bulletins, and we would have threads about CVs falling off. Not all mechanics have the tools and skills to compress the washers and then put the snap ring on properly.
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[raygreenwood]

[SGKent]

just finished a search. ETKA shows it up to 1975 then no longer. It is not present in Vanagons either. The main difference that I could see between the bus and Vanagon CV is that the Vanagon CV has a gasket on both sides. One is a 211 part and the other a 251 part.

I am leaving the cupped washer out. Some may still use it but I am Ok with the delete. Someone posted earlier that they had never had any issues with the delete. Hans and his co-worker, Frederick, the two engineers who made the decision back in 1974, have been gone a long time.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[kreemoweet]

[Wildthings]

[SGKent]

I used Google Translate again three times on it this morning, and in each it cames back the same as an optional delete. The 1976 Dealer Service manual published by VWOG does not show or mention it. My 1971 used them, never gave me an issue putting the circlip on, still wore out. Maybe someone can look at the Vanagon Service manual if they have one.

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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[Nitramrebrab72]

[Wildthings]

This is the translation Google Translate gives:

Starting with the 1975 model year, the diaphragm spring behind the constant velocity joint was removed from all Type 2 vehicles. The T spring is not to be reinstalled, even when repairing existing drive shafts.

The way I read it, VW is saying NOT to reinstall the washer.

[Nitramrebrab72]

It is just to save time, VW fitters ,even with the correct tool/system set up were wasting too much time with the finicky sprung washer and the consequences were so minimum as the splines are grease packed as a solid/sprung side to side motion lock is better but not necessary they just decided to deleted it... Unlike oiled splines as per the 091 gearbox output shafts where the spline spring washer were always fitted and no recommendations to remove were ever made, which is totally understandable as unlike grease, gear oil does not have the required viscosity to firstly create a required barrier between the 2 parts, and most important the required viscosity to stop a rotational induced side to side oscillation that would prematurely wear the splines of the gear box output shafts and are therefore a solid/sprung fit.
As regards Bentley who are not VW specialists but more like literature parrots, didn't analyse the removal in detail or just wanted to keep it simple and went with a cross the board decision stating to remove on all models as VW did for simplicity of communication. If it was for a known fault/reason they would of stated why.
As stated by splined drive shaft manufacturers a solid/sprung on greased splines is recommended but not obligatory were as oiled splines it is.

[SGKent]

old thread but I was researching this on Google and it hit this thread. The irony is that the kits even with the raised area on the shaft side come with the spring washer. Guess Lobro did not get the message.

The bulletin that started this is August of 1974, (below) which is a new model year where the later transmission and FI engines were coming out in North America, however the bulletin is not country or engine specific. The Technical Bulletin says the item was deleted and that there is no need to put it back when servicing. It does not say, "do not put it back." It sounds more like "we decided we really don't need this for it to work right so you can eliminate it." The 1976 Orange Manual printed in Germany by VWOG does not show the spring washer in the description and service instructions. Below is the 1974 Technical Bulletin and translation:

[Abscate]

Someone probably garnered up the courage to file those Rockfords a bit, Jim.
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[RalphWiggam]

[raygreenwood]

[Wildthings]

I don't think washers cause a problem so long as the snap ring is in factory condition and fully seated. The only problems I have seen is when the ring pops out of the groove and the ring is just one more piece of crap that could potentially get into the joint. With the washer in place, after the snap ring is installed it needs to be tapped fully into it's groove with a hammer and soft punch.

The one advantage of having the washer is that since the inner race is held tight against the snap ring, it doesn't beat against it and eventually mash up the splines making the race hard to remove from the axle shaft when servicing the CV.

[raygreenwood]

Looking back in this thread....I am not buying at all....the Desertbusman theory that at minimum/maximum angle ....a joint with the washer now has a angle length and bearing position that is too long or short.

So what.

That is really no different than saying that your valve geometry is only perfect at half lift. At max lift and 0 lift your valve adjuster is swiping the valve tip way out of tolerance. Well no duh! But it spends a fraction of it's time in those positions.

The same goes for the CV joint and axle assembly. Yes, WITH the washer means.....without letting the CV joint slide in and out along the shaft splines .....at maximum axle angle....whether it's up or down (it will mostly be downward as the trailing arm/wishbone unloads).....yes....the center grooved hub splined to the shaft will pull the ball out of the exact center of it's position in both the inner and outer race of the CV.

So what. Maybe it's out 0.080" more or less?.....and its out for a second or two every how many miles? I mean....unless you are driving around in the desert for 200 miles with an air lift kit keeping the joint at maximum down angle....what are the odds this will matter at all?

This was an interesting thread with interesting links from a decade ago. I did learn something new about the later replacement joints with the raised/boss ring....that have enough height to not require using the dished washer. That was new to me.

But....with all of the "use this on these years but not one those models" crap in the Bentley....nowhere does it EXPLAIN exactly WHY so many millions of axles worked fine for decades....and now must no longer use the washer.

I can see this for the NEW joints with the raised boss.....but it sounds incorrect to have the same new rule for those still running the old joints.

Not buying it.

This sounds more to me like a directive from VW fo simplify methods.....at the cost of short term, out of warranty material. By that I mean....you have written dealer procedures for old models that require a press. Then you have other written procedures for NEW parts with no washer that do not require a press.

It's far easier for training and paperwork wise to get rid of the old method and move to one new method even if it accelerates spline wear on those still using the old parts. I would bet the reasoning is that probably most of the older parts are already a decade or so old. If you get another 3-5 years before a hub or spline craps out....cool. They will sell you a new one.

But the fact remains on some VW'S (I don't know if it was that much of a problem on the bus that sits with a sharper angle on its joints) .....that after they started removing the washer...and instructing people to remove the washer.....on a lot of cars like type 3 and 4 for sure.....the 1/8" to 3/16" pile of slack that now exists in the stack up of two joints and a shaft on each side of the car.....started causing the shaft to slide in and out on cornering.....and hammering a hole in the rubber and metal cap that covers the snap ring in the inner CV hub.

I remember when this whole controversy started.....mid to late 80's? Some kite started coming without dished washers....some still had them. Dealer keeps recommending that washer is obsolete...discard it. Two months later the snap ring on inner hub pops loose from pounding....and/or.....hole hammered in plastic and metal plug and gear oil leaking out of transmission into CV........and private mechanics railing against the dealer and Bentley because in too many vehicles....leaving out the dished Bellville washer....caused these problems.

In my opinion.....it's just another instance of some variation in engineering discovered by VW over the decades as items wear....and another instance of the Bentley not getting everything 100% right (through no fault of their own).

Ray

[RalphWiggam]

Just pulled apart my DS axle due to clacking and driving me crazy. Sounded bad.

Turns out mine don't have the washer and use the old inner section with no lip. That inner section was sliding back and forth on the splines banging against the circlip causing the racket.

So I'm going to try and find the washers and reinstall them. I can't take the noise and it doesn't seem safe.

[airschooled]

I have a vintage Bentley from 1974 or 75, I'll be interested in seeing if there's any mention at all in it. Does anyone know if the Thing CVs (more similar to bus than bug) had a note about the washers?
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