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BirdBus85
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Joined: December 06, 2022
Posts: 47
Location: North Carolina
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 Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2024 10:29 am Post subject: Re: replace or refurb brake proportioning valve? |
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Hoping someone can offer some insight here.....After carefully defusing my proportioning valve, I took it a part for a thorough cleaning since I'm doing all new brake lines. It was grungy but not bad, still glad to have it all cleaned and nice.
But...inside there was this roll pin, seemingly loose, and I have no clue what it could be there for? Judging by the rest of the work I've been doing on my van (1985 Weekender), this valve is likely untouched from the factory.
My only logical thought is its in place as a simple restrictor. Any thoughts?
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85 Westfalia Weekender |
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boxer74
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Joined: July 03, 2011
Posts: 869
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 7:57 am Post subject: Re: replace or refurb brake proportioning valve? |
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| Pcforno wrote: |
| That’s the one. |
Were you able to remove the fittings from the stock valve and reuse or did you cut it all out and put in new flares, unions, etc.?
Mine is kinda rusty like in the pictures earlier in this thread.
I have my brake fluid drained currently as I'm in the process of swapping to discs in rear and bigger discs in front, so now is the time to do it I guess.
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74 Super
84 Westy |
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Pcforno
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 606
Location: Santa Fe, nm
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| Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 7:55 am Post subject: Re: replace or refurb brake proportioning valve? |
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| That’s the one. |
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boxer74
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Joined: July 03, 2011
Posts: 869
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 7:13 am Post subject: Re: replace or refurb brake proportioning valve? |
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| Pcforno wrote: |
Wanted to give my experience - proportioning valves are intended to reduce rear brake line pressure during sudden stopping so the rear brakes do not lock up prior to the front, possibly causing the vehicle to rotate around the skidding rear tires.
I’ve done a rear disc brake conversion like many and decided to see remove the proportioning valve and replace it with an adjustable wilwood portioning valve. Drum brakes require proportionally less line pressure to operate then disk brakes so my theory was the rear discs were t getting as much line pressure as they could during quick stopping.
The testing procedure is to slam on the brakes and lock them up while someone watches and lets you know if the rears lock up before the front.
In my case, even with the proportioning valve wide open to the rears the lockup was simultaneous of front and rear.
Since making the change I’ve had way more braking power since the rears were getting so much less line pressure with the stock valve.
So for those with conversions you may want to get an adjustable valve and experiment, you may get more braking power as the rears aren’t getting as much line pressure as they could |
Interesting. Something to consider for sure.
Is this what you used?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-260-8419?se...F0QAvD_BwE
Looks like you would need some 1/8 NPT to M10x1 adapters to suit euro brake lines that the van uses.
EDIT: Nevermind, I see that they make a M10x1 version. Nice.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-260-12627
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84 Westy |
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Pcforno
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 606
Location: Santa Fe, nm
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| Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 6:53 am Post subject: Re: replace or refurb brake proportioning valve? |
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Wanted to give my experience - proportioning valves are intended to reduce rear brake line pressure during sudden stopping so the rear brakes do not lock up prior to the front, possibly causing the vehicle to rotate around the skidding rear tires.
I’ve done a rear disc brake conversion like many and decided to see remove the proportioning valve and replace it with an adjustable wilwood portioning valve. Drum brakes require proportionally less line pressure to operate then disk brakes so my theory was the rear discs were t getting as much line pressure as they could during quick stopping.
The testing procedure is to slam on the brakes and lock them up while someone watches and lets you know if the rears lock up before the front.
In my case, even with the proportioning valve wide open to the rears the lockup was simultaneous of front and rear.
Since making the change I’ve had way more braking power since the rears were getting so much less line pressure with the stock valve.
So for those with conversions you may want to get an adjustable valve and experiment, you may get more braking power as the rears aren’t getting as much line pressure as they could |
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 24410
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2024 2:57 am Post subject: Re: replace or refurb brake proportioning valve? |
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Don’t be fearful of 58 seconds of propane heat on this flare nuts to ease them out. Much more effective than elixirs which don’t reach the detritus. Best is to heat cool three times over 10-15 minutes, that really busts up corrosion. The second it turns a bit, hit it with elixir. ATF/acetone is the best one.
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Matt & Stan the Van '
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Joined: June 04, 2022
Posts: 16
Location: NOVA SCOTIA, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2024 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Oh pishsaw! Don't Take it apart? It isn't a bomb for goodness sake.
It has a big ball bearing it the rolls forward on hard braking and adjusts the brake pressure to the rear drums.
Take the top off, clean it out, it's full of brake fluid crap.
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These posts from 9 year ago and more continue to have value for us newbies, and I appreciate the discussion.
I had the same gawd-awful looking valve on my '88 that looked like a rusty grenade from WWII, every bit as hopeless as the above posted photos, and I thought I'd have to get a new one.
But I did all the stuff you all talked about here. Had to use extractor sockets and impact wrench on the badly corroded flare nuts. Put rubber stoppers in the fluid ports. Soaked the body, still bolted together, in Evapo-rust for 2 days, then beat it up with a brass wheel brush, down to bare metal. Unbolted the cap so as not to paint it shut. Degreased and painted with POR15. Let 2 coats dry.
Once the paint dried, I investigated inside... the insides looked good, if grungy. I sprayed a ton of brake cleaner into the piston hold, and it drained out of the bottom brake fluid port, but i felt I wasn't really getting it clean. I wasn't sure how to pull the innards out of the valve body -- not obvious to me, and asked ChatGPT. So I used an air compressor with a rubber cone nozzle on it, and shot air into the brake line port at the bottom, BUT first made sure to bolt the cap back on the valve body very loosely, partially, with lots of play; I wanted the cap on to prevent blowing the contents out all over the garage. (I've seen the power that nozzle had on brake calipers and pistons flying out.) so then I got the inner piston and ball bearing out and it was interesting to see inside. It was gunky so I'm glad i removed this and cleaned it out with brake cleaner. I wished I had seen photos so I'm going to post mine here in case it helps anyone else. If I can do this, anyone can!
I got all the gunk out of the body and cleaned up the gunky piston and O rings. Looks great now. There was one part of the piston piece that I did not frig with: on the side that faces the ball bearing there's another small seal. I decided to leave that alone, figuring there can't be a lot of gunk in that small space. I didn't want to tear the seal and end up having to buy a new valve after all! The O-rings were fine. The seal ring on the cap was fine.
I agree with the above posters comments that the original is going to be better than a replacement, and the insides were like new. I'm convinced my PValve is 98% like new now after refurbishing. I did a similar process on my propane tank few years ago which also looked like a rusty bomb. As DJKeev points out, it's not a bomb....
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10522
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: replace or refurb brake proportioning valve? |
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You're welcome.
One other enemy is moisture. Not long ago, I ran into a situation where my master cylinder rusted prematurely. It's MOST likely because the vehicle sat unused for most of a year, and fluid wasn't "flushed" (exchanged) for 2-3 years, but I also wonder if using a home built pressure bleeder using AIR to push fluid through the system, introduces air borne moisture into the hydraulic system. But that's just the musing of a hack "scientist". lol
Neil.
more here
https://picasaweb.google.com/musomuso/NewFTEGermanMCOldMC#6174035582293290786
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
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Franagon
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Joined: January 13, 2009
Posts: 228
Location: Savannah, GA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: replace or refurb brake proportioning valve? |
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Thanks for all of the links and reference to other posts. I would first attempt to try to clean my proportional valve, before sourcing a new one. My lines are pretty rusted from the outside, so I just want to take care of those. I haven't really flushed my system, but have drained it and put new fluid it, without seeing a terrible amount of 'stuff'. Thanks for the info!
Fran
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Vanagon Nut
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Franagon
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:49 am Post subject: Re: replace or refurb brake proportioning valve? |
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I see VC showing one for $175. Is this as good as OEM? Reading this post, I don't have a reason to believe mine is bad, just putting big brakes on and new lines, just want to make sure the system is tip top. I basically have new brake components everywhere else, but the booster. I will get to that eventually. Thanks again,
Fran
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Vanagon Nut
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that pic David.
Got any more shots of that part?
Are the halves sealed with a rubber O ring?
Thanks.
Neil.
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1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
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djkeev
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| As others have said, you are likely fine with your old valve. My worry would be the corroded metal brake lines. Those are shot and need replacement. If you don't have a tubing wrench, buy one before trying to remove those lines, or maybe just snip them off and use a six point socket on the nut. |
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Zinc phosphate coating over top Magnet Paints silver rust encapsulator:
Used ear plugs protected the internal threads during spraying. |
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Read above.
The proportining valves have been long gone from VW's parts shelves--
The best you can do is clean them up, and re-use them, as long as they function properly.
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insyncro
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Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Shake it.
If it rattles, it all good.
This parts is NLA new. |
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snowsyncro
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Tom Powell wrote: |
Clean it up and see if it works.
Use flare nut wrenches to take off the brake lines
don't take it apart
don't let any dirt get inside
OG is usually better than replacement parts
Aloha
tp |
I agree with everything that Tom says here. Yours does not look that bad. At the time I was working on that one above in the photo, I could not quickly source a replacement, and I was keen to get the brake lines all replaced. I have since purchased a replacement, but I keep the new one as a spare, because the old one works fine.
Those brake regulators can look very bad on the outside (yours does not look that bad to me) and yet be perfectly fine on the inside. The steel is very thick, and as long as the inside has not been exposed to the elements (e.g. open brake lines) then the inside can still be like new. There is a valve inside that re-proportions brake line pressure front/rear during hard braking, so that the rear wheels don't lock up as the weight transfer occurs. It is easy to check if it is working. I would do this…
Brush the loose rust and dirt from the regulator and brake lines. Soak the fittings and the mounting bolt with a good penetrant for a few days, then loosen the lines and remove the regulator (so you can treat the rust in behind). When you have it off, give it a gentle shake using a rocking motion. You should hear the proportioning valve rocking. If you don't then it is bad. That is the first test. Clean it up, de-activate the rust, paint it a pretty colour, and put it back together.
The second test is to do some hard braking and see if it works. In a safe location of course. Under hard braking the back wheels should not lock up early. That is dangerous. If they do, the valve is not working and will need to be replaced, but now it will be much easier.
I see no harm in trying, and my rationale (as Tom has said) is the the OG internals, as old as they are, might just be better quality, and safer, than a replacement of unknown quality. We hear all the time of replacement parts failing very quickly, and I don't want to take that chance with brake parts, if I can avoid it.
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Tom Powell
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:53 am Post subject: |
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Clean it up and see if it works.
Use flare nut wrenches to take off the brake lines
don't take it apart
don't let any dirt get inside
OG is usually better than replacement parts
Aloha
tp |
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rubbachicken
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