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sunkid
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2008
Posts: 31
Location: San Diego, CA
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 Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: YAVAWD - Yet Another Vanagon AUX Wiring Diagram - Fuses? |
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Pardon me for reviving an old thread, even if it is my own...
Finally getting to putting it all back together here and am running into many mysteries of wiring done by previous owners. I was planning to hook my AUX battery up as described here, for example, but that would only power the cigarette lighter. Interior lights and clock were off with my main battery disconnected. If I hook up the AUX directly to an interior light, I have power on fuses 1-4 regardless of which I pull out.
Looking at the big B plug that should have pins 11 and 12 connected to cigarette lighter and clock/lights respectively, it is actually missing the #12 connector.
Any help or advice on how to best figure out what is going on here would be greatly appreciated. |
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whynotvw
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1322
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| RBEmerson wrote: |
| whynotvw wrote: |
| RBEmerson wrote: |
[soap box mode] even 80W strikes me as wishful thinking.
[/soap box mode] |
Its not like we have a unlimited space on the roof like a regular RV or Boat. Lets be real we have small space to work with and even smaller if you carry cargo or surfboards etc.... Yea it would be nice to have 400 watts or 200 watts, but really space on the roof is very limited. By the way my 80watts work just fine with me.  |
[soapbox mode]The laws of physics can't be ignored. If the demand exceeds the power availability, an undersized module will never, ever get the job done. If the job is full charging. If the job is only to slow down the rate of discharge (sooner or later the engine has to be run), then a small panel is OK, but IMHO why bother. "Do or do not, there is no try."
The first thing that has to be done is a full assessment of the amp-hours to be consumed. That means every little LED, motor (e.g., fridge fan as well as cabin fans), laptop charging, phone charging, etc., etc. has to be accounted for. How much does each device draw and how long is it likely to be used during a 24 hour day. If the module can't supply that same amount (preferably at least a little more) as the demand, the system is undersized. There is no way around that.
The choices are then to use less power - leave the TV home, for example - or get more charging. If 100 - 150 watts does the job, fine. In my experience, even with careful use - don't leave something drawing power if it's not really in use - the overall demand is often more than expected.
And charging is less than expected. Trees cast shadows. Clouds cast shadows. Most modules stop producing if a surprisingly small area of the module is shaded (this is the result of internal wiring in the module and isn't user-adjustable). Winter camping adds its loads (shorter days, more lights) and the sun isn't delivering as much energy to the module as a summer day. In summer, the module is heated up more, dropping output. It doesn't drop precipitously, of course, but there is some loss.
It's certainly possible to tweak how the module is used. Put it on a stand and move it around to favor the best illumination, for example. But remember voltage drop on the intervening wiring. Get that wrong and the benefit from a movable panel may be eaten up by wiring losses.
It's possible to cobble something together that may or may not meet most needs, but getting it really right and up to "off the grid" standards just isn't as simple as many folks want it to be. [/soap box mode] |
 blah blah blah. please get to the point, i feel like i'm in some physics class
I've been using my 80 watt for 5 years and its been doing just fine. And if thats not enough I carry a honda eu1000i inverter which can top off all my batteries in couple hours with the Iota charger. For the most part my solar works just fine. |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10477
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Most Westy people are using solar to supplement their needs, not to go completely off-grid for any extended period. The few people wanting to stay completely off-grid need more capacity, naturally.
But no matter how much of the Westy roof you cover with solar panels and no matter how much you fill the storage areas with heavy batteries there can still be circumstances under which you will not have enough of either. So the real issue is planning and balance. You have to balance the usefulness of having MORE of something with the downsides of carrying more of it. And then plan to live under the limitations that will always exist.
Mark |
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RBEmerson
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2011
Posts: 2221
Location: SE PA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| whynotvw wrote: |
| RBEmerson wrote: |
[soap box mode] even 80W strikes me as wishful thinking.
[/soap box mode] |
Its not like we have a unlimited space on the roof like a regular RV or Boat. Lets be real we have small space to work with and even smaller if you carry cargo or surfboards etc.... Yea it would be nice to have 400 watts or 200 watts, but really space on the roof is very limited. By the way my 80watts work just fine with me. |
[soapbox mode]The laws of physics can't be ignored. If the demand exceeds the power availability, an undersized module will never, ever get the job done. If the job is full charging. If the job is only to slow down the rate of discharge (sooner or later the engine has to be run), then a small panel is OK, but IMHO why bother. "Do or do not, there is no try."
The first thing that has to be done is a full assessment of the amp-hours to be consumed. That means every little LED, motor (e.g., fridge fan as well as cabin fans), laptop charging, phone charging, etc., etc. has to be accounted for. How much does each device draw and how long is it likely to be used during a 24 hour day. If the module can't supply that same amount (preferably at least a little more) as the demand, the system is undersized. There is no way around that.
The choices are then to use less power - leave the TV home, for example - or get more charging. If 100 - 150 watts does the job, fine. In my experience, even with careful use - don't leave something drawing power if it's not really in use - the overall demand is often more than expected.
And charging is less than expected. Trees cast shadows. Clouds cast shadows. Most modules stop producing if a surprisingly small area of the module is shaded (this is the result of internal wiring in the module and isn't user-adjustable). Winter camping adds its loads (shorter days, more lights) and the sun isn't delivering as much energy to the module as a summer day. In summer, the module is heated up more, dropping output. It doesn't drop precipitously, of course, but there is some loss.
It's certainly possible to tweak how the module is used. Put it on a stand and move it around to favor the best illumination, for example. But remember voltage drop on the intervening wiring. Get that wrong and the benefit from a movable panel may be eaten up by wiring losses.
It's possible to cobble something together that may or may not meet most needs, but getting it really right and up to "off the grid" standards just isn't as simple as many folks want it to be. [/soap box mode]
_________________
Lord, give me coffee to change the things I can change, and wine to accept the things I can't change. |
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 8601
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| RBEmerson wrote: |
| I am skeptical of many of the solar module projects seen here. Coming from an environment (marine cruising) where 200W modules are now pretty much the bare minimum, and 400W module sets are common, even 80W strikes me as wishful thinking. |
Solar requirements all depend on the individual set-ups. A bare-bones 16' pontoon boat is vastly different from a 50' yacht. Likewise, my minimal Vanagon components (LED light strips, eventual portable fridge, Dometic fridge fan, and that's it) do not require the same solar needs as John Doe's Vanagon in which he uses a fridge/freezer, stereo, TV, computer, microwave, inverter, lights, and so forth. My set-up could get by with 80W, while Mr. Doe's set-up might need 200W or more. Furthermore, there are numerous 100W set-ups, permanently mounted and portable, displayed on The Samba that are working just dandy.
So, you really need to sit down and do some math before spending money on a solar system, including any potential expansion components... IMHO. For some, 50W will be enough, for others 50W will not even come close. 
_________________
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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whynotvw
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1322
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| RBEmerson wrote: |
[soap box mode] even 80W strikes me as wishful thinking.
[/soap box mode] |
Its not like we have a unlimited space on the roof like a regular RV or Boat. Lets be real we have small space to work with and even smaller if you carry cargo or surfboards etc.... Yea it would be nice to have 400 watts or 200 watts, but really space on the roof is very limited. By the way my 80watts work just fine with me. |
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RBEmerson
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Joined: November 05, 2011
Posts: 2221
Location: SE PA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, you need all three 100A fuses. Although I'd look at the loads again; 100A seems a little high.
You need to guard your power sources with fuses, as you did.
By contrast, VW doesn't guard any of the three wires to the main battery. If the battery-starter lead wears through, bye-bye Westy. And probably ditto for the two leads to the fuse panel and aux. battery. 
So, yes, ya done good to think about the fuses needed. Just tune their sizing a bit. 
Something to research: if you're going to get serious about using solar modules, look into MPPT controllers (MPPT is a technology, not a brand).
[soap box mode] I am skeptical of many of the solar module projects seen here. Coming from an environment (marine cruising) where 200W modules are now pretty much the bare minimum, and 400W module sets are common, even 80W strikes me as wishful thinking.
Basic rules for any module (regardless of size): 1) keep it square to the sun as long as possible but certainly during local mid-day, 2) keep it cool, 3) keep it clean, 4) there's MPPT and there's a waste of money and effort.
The best power concentration is always when the panel is perpendicular to the sun's rays. Anything less and the same power is spread over a larger area or, inverting, less power on a fixed area. When the sun is at its highest, the light passes through less of the atmosphere than at sunrise or sunset. The shorter path through the air means less power is lost. The best period for solar power is around local noon on the summer solstice (sun is at its highest, the day is the longest), the worst is the winter solstice (lowest sun at local noon, shortest day).
The cooler a module is, the more efficient it is. Sunlight heats up panels. Cooler ambient air (or at least cooler air circulating under a module) helps. This is just one of those contradictions in life: the sunlight you want heats the module the way you don't want.
A dirty module is an inefficient module. Given even a good module is only about 18% efficient(!), dirt on the module isn't going to help raise that number. It will drop the number. A lot.
MPPT (maximum power point tracking) is an electrical slight of hand developed to force a module to operate in its electrical sweet spot. (For those who want to catch up on their sleep, Google on MPPT and how the module is tricked into working at the knee of its power curve. If that doesn't put out the lights, call an anesthesiologist.) What matters is not using an MPPT (technology) controller with modules of any real size is literally wasting power and money. An MPPT controller won't beat the laws of thermodynamics, but it'll find a lot more power in your solar module system than anything else.
Finally, if you can fold, bend, or roll up your fave module, please do so forthwith. It'll take up less space in the recycling bin where it belongs. Honest, of all the solar modules, thin-film modules are, by far, the least efficient. If you can't go for monocrystalline panels or polycrystalline panels, save your money for them and, in the mean time, work on optimizing your existing power system. Money spent on thin-film modules is money wasted. Honest. They look cool and the flexible panel seems neat but... see item 1) above. If the module isn't flat and square to the sun, you're not getting all you can from your module investment. And no thin-film module can flex and remain fully square to the sun. [/soap box mode]
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Lord, give me coffee to change the things I can change, and wine to accept the things I can't change. |
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zandr
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2014
Posts: 28
Location: Berkeley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:40 am Post subject: |
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It's difficult to tell what's going on from your schematic since you're inconsistent about showing grounds and negative leads, but...
The dual relays really bother me. If you're going to use two relays, I suppose it's safer to wire the coils in series, because then you'll be protected against one possible failure mode. But it seems more likely that the high current side will fail (even partially - high contact resistance) and the other relay will end up carrying all the load. Since you'd then have a 60A relay in a circuit fused at 100A, you could have a problem.
If you're going to insist on two relays, rather than a single properly sized relay, at least fuse them independently.
If your only expectation of the solar panel is to keep the battery topped up while storing the vehicle, you might be OK. 30W isn't going to extend the run time of your system while camping at all.
I admire the ingenuity of using the solar controller's low-voltage disconnect to shed load from the house system. The inverter isn't connected that way, and might well have non-trivial current draw even when "off". Something to keep in mind. If you're going with giant relays already, I'd use one there.
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'87 EJ22 Full Westy "Hamish" |
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whynotvw
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1322
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:51 am Post subject: |
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couple of things,
30 watt isn't much for solar. I would go minimum 80 watts.
the ub series batteries are prone to problems, are you sure you want to go that route? |
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sunkid
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2008
Posts: 31
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
If you wire the relay controls in series like that then if one should fail the other could stop working too. Why 2 relays? Why wired so a single failure could disable both?
Mark |
Ahh... progress! We are now discussing reasons rather than simply stating stuff won't work! 
Anyways, as you have probably noticed, I have sized the entire system for overkill future expansion. Given the resulting fuse sizes, I don't want any of the components to have less capacity and blow before the fuse does. Hence, I want two relays with the load connected in parallel. I am also hoping that the relays won't heat up as much with the load spread evenly between them.
There is actually one minor advantage to wiring the input of the relays in series. You are correct that if one of the input channels somehow blocks, the other relay would shut down too. But that means that I would actually find out about the relay failure (however unlikely) rather than just running off a single relay unbeknownst. |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10477
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:14 am Post subject: |
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If you wire the relay controls in series like that then if one should fail the other could stop working too. Why 2 relays? Why wired so a single failure could disable both?
Mark |
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sunkid
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2008
Posts: 31
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
You don't need 2 of the 60 amp relays. A single one would more than do. Carry the extra as a spare. If you do wire both up you need to wire the control pins in parallel, not in series.
Besides the relays, the way other things are shown wired it will not work. |
Just a quick update to show that the relays wired in series work just fine. The input is rated 3-32V, so 6V is plenty to trip them. The measured current is just 13mA, which I am not worried about at all. That said, I might put in a cut-off switch into the control panel I am planning to set up next.
I would be curious to know what exactly won't work as I have drawn it and why?
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10477
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:54 am Post subject: |
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You don't need 2 of the 60 amp relays. A single one would more than do. Carry the extra as a spare. If you do wire both up you need to wire the control pins in parallel, not in series.
Besides the relays, the way other things are shown wired it will not work.
Mark
| sunkid wrote: |
The relays are solid state and rated 3-32V on the input. Not sure what the voltage drop is over the inputs, but I really don't see the issue wiring them in series...... |
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Phishman068
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WLD*WSTY
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Joined: November 04, 2009
Posts: 438
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: YAVAWD - Yet Another Vanagon AUX Wiring Diagram - Fuses? |
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| sunkid wrote: |
Finally putting an AUX battery, a small solar panel, and an inverter into my '86 Westy "Jezebel" (aka. Trusty Rusty).
My question is, do I need all three of the 100A fuses? Do I have the placement right? Are the sized correctly? The inverter is rated at 600W, 1100W peak.
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The relays will need to be connected in parallel, since wiring them in series will allow only half of the voltage to each relay.
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thatvwbusguy
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Joined: April 18, 2007
Posts: 1712
Location: Newmarket, New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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There are several disadvantages to using over-sized wiring that immediately come to mind:
1) The wire is expensive.
2) Good quality tools to correctly install large gauge terminals are very expensive.
3) It is harder to make a clean installation with large diameter wires.
4) You won't actually gain anything for the extra cost and frustration.
Here are some general thoughts based on the dozens of solar installations I have done and helped design for use in Vanagon's:
A 30W solar panel is only capable of producing 2.5A @ 12VDC (assuming 100% efficiency, which is never going to happen). That is not very much charging power.
I would consider a good quality 70W panel and an MPPT charge controller the entry level for usable auxiliary charging unless you only plan on very minimal use (which the 600W inverter pretty much immediately cancels out). It has been my experience that most people who start with a small output panel will go back to upgrade it within a year or two of actual use. To put it another way, nobody ever complains about having too much solar power, but lots of people complain about not having enough.
Few will argue that the simpler you can make your installation, the less headaches you will have with it in the future. Using the low voltage disconnect feature on a cheap controller is adding complexity that is only marginally useful. Since you are not depending on these batteries to start the van, it will only serve to guard against killing the auxiliary battery after leaving accessories on by mistake. A simple low voltage alarm would probably be more useful in the long run.
Since you already have the 30W panel, it would be an ideal candidate to be used as a "sun tracker" that you can move around to place in direct sunlight, while depending on a larger roof mounted panel to do the majority of your charging.
Running power from the auxiliary fuse block to power the radio, interior lights and 12V socket on the dash is easy in an 86-91 van using the fuse 3 modification https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonheadlightrela...iary-power
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'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH
If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
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sunkid
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2008
Posts: 31
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| m_brown_ wrote: |
| Sorry missed that on the LVD. Are the coils on the relays 24v since they are wired in series? I would simplify the relays with a single relay. I personally would eliminate the LVD function because your 30W panel is not going to do too much more than trickle charge and may be a pain when camping. I would also look into upgrading your inverter to a inverter/charge combo unit. How much will you be using your inverter? That can suck down your 88aH pretty quick. |
The relays are solid state and rated 3-32V on the input. Not sure what the voltage drop is over the inputs, but I really don't see the issue wiring them in series.
I have yet to camp somewhere where I have shore power available, but an inverter/charge combo was a consideration. However, I somehow got convinced I needed the pure sine inverter (intended to hook up a Mac laptop), and those combos are $$$$$. This inverter's internal LVD will cut off at 10V, which may be a tad low... |
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sunkid
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2008
Posts: 31
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| kourt wrote: |
| A solar panel and charge controller is simply a charging device. It should connect directly to the battery independently. The charge controller should not be interfaced with the aux fuse bank or the inverter. The wire gauge of the solar charging array probably need not be very robust. I see you have ambitions to put loads on the charge controller itself (because it has that feature) but this may make troubleshooting complicated later in life---I would not recommend doing that (and the wire gauge for loading becomes an issue). |
You may not have seen my reply to m_brown before posting this, but just to clarify: this charge controller also works as a low-voltage disconnect (LVD) for small loads. Yes, it's more complicated to have the relays in the circuit, but I think it will be worth it in the long run by extending battery life.
| kourt wrote: |
The inverter is a loading device, and a potentially big one. Another independent connection to the battery array, with a properly rated fuse on positive side for that circuit near the battery.
Same for aux fuse bank--independent connection to battery array, separate master fuse near battery on positive side for that circuit. |
Yeah, that part I was wondering about... I'll run the separate connection from the AUX fuse panel to the battery with the fuse I have drawn at the inverter connection.
| kourt wrote: |
| Do you have any other method of charging other than solar? 30 watts will not get you very far. A separate battery charger (or inverter/charter) would be ideal--you can plug the van into the wall outlet at home (or an RV park) and charge the batteries that way. |
I have considered adding a charger but have not researched this thoroughly yet. I am thinking I might upgrade the solar panel first (the little one was a gift).
| kourt wrote: |
| Do you plan to mod your house wiring to run radio/interior lights/etc from the aux battery? Just curious. |
Yes, part of that is already drawn in above (12AWG to stock fuse panel connectors B11 & B12). The radio seems to have its own fuse not on the stock fuse panel (which I just recently discovered the hard way) and I am considering running another connection to the AUX fuse panel just for it (and its soon to come successor).
Should all these wires be run in a conduit under the fridge and sink? |
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m_brown_
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Joined: August 21, 2002
Posts: 85
Location: Juneau, AK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry missed that on the LVD. Are the coils on the relays 24v since they are wired in series? I would simplify the relays with a single relay. I personally would eliminate the LVD function because your 30W panel is not going to do too much more than trickle charge and may be a pain when camping. I would also look into upgrading your inverter to a inverter/charge combo unit. How much will you be using your inverter? That can suck down your 88aH pretty quick.
Last edited by m_brown_ on Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kourt
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Posts: 2399
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with m_brown_...
Organize items in the schematic by loading or charging behaviors.
A solar panel and charge controller is simply a charging device. It should connect directly to the battery independently. The charge controller should not be interfaced with the aux fuse bank or the inverter. The wire gauge of the solar charging array probably need not be very robust. I see you have ambitions to put loads on the charge controller itself (because it has that feature) but this may make troubleshooting complicated later in life---I would not recommend doing that (and the wire gauge for loading becomes an issue).
The inverter is a loading device, and a potentially big one. Another independent connection to the battery array, with a properly rated fuse on positive side for that circuit near the battery.
Same for aux fuse bank--independent connection to battery array, separate master fuse near battery on positive side for that circuit.
Do you have any other method of charging other than solar? 30 watts will not get you very far. A separate battery charger (or inverter/charter) would be ideal--you can plug the van into the wall outlet at home (or an RV park) and charge the batteries that way.
Do you plan to mod your house wiring to run radio/interior lights/etc from the aux battery? Just curious.
kourt |
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