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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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 Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| vanagonjr wrote: |
| WLD*WSTY wrote: |
| I believe there will soon be, if not already, more Subaru conversions than original engines. |
Not even close. I've been to events with 40-50 vanaogns at one place. Sure some are Suby, some are Zetec, then there is the occasional TDi and Audi or VW 6-cyl - but the number of WBX'ers by far out number all the rest. |
If current supply chains for transmission parts dry up.
We will see more Subaru conversions mated to Reversed Subaru 5 speed transmissions for sure.
Andrew Flint's work reversing the 1.8T, using mainly Passat\Audi driveline parts to replace the VW boxes will surely take off even further.
With Vanistan, RJE and GW, the WBX is here to stay.
Transmissions are what people should be focusing on IMHO. |
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vanagonjr
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3635
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| WLD*WSTY wrote: |
| I believe there will soon be, if not already, more Subaru conversions than original engines. |
Not even close. I've been to events with 40-50 vanaogns at one place. Sure some are Suby, some are Zetec, then there is the occasional TDi and Audi or VW 6-cyl - but the number of WBX'ers by far out number all the rest.
_________________
John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Subaru vs. Zetec (hopefully, a debate thread) |
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Howdy Volks,
In anticipation of the release of Bostig's RG6, I have a dedicated thread just for it.
I have a few Zetecs readied for kits to arrive and my own personal crate engine getting some mild performance upgrades.
If you have a kit ordered, here is your thread to show your enthusiasm, be able to discuss the kit, build suggestions and swap stories of success.
Enjoy.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=642557 |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12168
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Ahem...
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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WLD*WSTY
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Joined: November 04, 2009
Posts: 438
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Lotek wrote: |
| I believe Mr. Z was referring to a consistent, pervasive anti-Subaru sentiment that is expressed on this forum...often. |
That sentiment may be partially caused by the pervasiveness of the Subaru conversion. Many converters prefer to keep the form factor original, i.e., boxer four. I believe there will soon be, if not already, more Subaru conversions than original engines. Due in part, of course, by the natural attrition in numbers of "original" vehicles.
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'82 SyncroWesty, the first ever conversion.'06 Subaru 2.5L |
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Lotek
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Joined: May 11, 2008
Posts: 126
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| MsTaboo wrote: |
It's funny, nobody ever complains about the Subaru conversions being Japanese, but "Oh the horror, you put a Ford in there!"
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I believe Mr. Z was referring to a consistent, pervasive anti-Subaru sentiment that is expressed on this forum...often. |
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MsTaboo 
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4573
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| MsTaboo wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Ahem... |
X2 |
What? Was it something I said?  |
Mr Z was pointing out how off topic this has gone, just seconding it. |
Hmmm…back when Z ahemed my post I was talking about Subaru vs Ford, flats vs inline, I thought that was what this thread was about?  I guess I'm lost, time for bed. 
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
All that's needed for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing.
Resist Kleptocratic Oligarchy (and Idiocracy)! |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| MsTaboo wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Ahem... |
X2 |
What? Was it something I said? |
Mr Z was pointing out how off topic this has gone, just seconding it. |
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4573
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Ahem... |
X2 |
What? Was it something I said?
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
All that's needed for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing.
Resist Kleptocratic Oligarchy (and Idiocracy)! |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Ahem... |
X2 |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32989
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Mopars separation from Benz I think is their last gasp.
Now that Fiat owns them, this is going to be their finale.
Too bad.
Not that I'm a Chrysler fan, but for sure they had some decent engines in their day,the Torque Flite was a super dependable trans.
They would self destuct / rot as you were on the roll, the interior plastic garbage would fall apart pretty quick but the darn things would always fire.
Now that Mussolini Bros. has them under their control, they are all done.
Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge, won't be around too long--watch.
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WLD*WSTY
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Joined: November 04, 2009
Posts: 438
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe Volkswagen learned something from that...
"Hi, Chrysler? It’s VW. Heard you broke up with Mercedes. You okay? Anyway, calling to see if we could rebadge your minivan. Yes, that’s right. No, this isn’t a prank call. We don’t have a van that we can sell in the U.S. So you’ll make us a van? Cool. Uh, wait, we can’t have the folding second row?"
-Car and Driver
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'82 SyncroWesty, the first ever conversion.'06 Subaru 2.5L |
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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15 years ago, owned a Dodge Caravan for a few years. It was great. I really liked how well the FWD van handled the snow.
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I am a high-functioning autistic into VW diesels and Vanagons along with other things that are unrelated to this site. |
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kamzcab86
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Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 8472
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| MsTaboo wrote: |
But why did the Chrysler take off and outsell the Vanagon?
If you go back and read the press releases from that time they all talk about the lack of power in the Vanagon. It was pricier, heavier, and slower.
And, of course, the Chrysler was the home town favorite. Buy American was popular at the time. |
While the Vanagon was/is absolutely underpowered, the ChryCo minivans had a massive appeal to a wide market: A brand new style of people-mover designed and built in the USA. They were essentially station wagons in a more upright stance with easy entry/exit for passengers and gear. They were desirable to both families and businesses. The driver sat behind the front axle and engine yielding a more comfortable and safe position, both mentally and physically. These minivans reigned supreme up until about the mid-'90s, when the Asian competition began ramping up better designs and quality.
Regardless of the power, the Vanagon simply did not have a mass-market charm in that era and Volkswagen, as a whole, was having reliability and dealer issues, which only compounded the issue.
We, as enthusiasts, see the appeal of Vanagons, but we're only a small percentage of the automotive world. However, most other minivans are simply appliances in the car world... thrown away at the end of their useful lives. T3's, on the other hand, have many thousands of dollars poured into them to keep them on the road. There is an upside to not being the most popular kid on the block. 
_________________
~Kamz 
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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syncrodoka
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Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12349
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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If internet numbers are to be trusted they had
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1984–1987 2.2 L K I4, 96 hp (72 kW), 119 lb·ft (161 N·m)
1984–1987 2.6 L Mitsubishi G54B I4, 104 hp (78 kW), 142 lb·ft (193 N·m)
1987½–1990 2.5 L K I4, 100 hp (75 kW), 135 lb·ft (183 N·m)
1987½–1988 3.0 L Mitsubishi 6G72 V6, 136 hp (101 kW), 168 lb·ft (228 N·m)
1989–1990 2.5 L Turbo I4, 150 hp (110 kW), 180 lb·ft (240 N·m)
1989-1990 3.0 L Mitsubishi 6G72 V6, 142 hp (106 kW), 173 lb·ft (235 N·m)
1990 3.3 L EGA V6, 150 hp (110 kW), 180 lb·ft (240 N·m) |
We had
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83-85 Vanagon 1.9 Wasserboxer HP- 82@4800 Torque- 105@2600
86-92 Vanagon 2.1 Wasserboxer HP- 90@4800 Torque- 117@3200
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They also had tranny options of 4 or 5 speed manual tranny and 3 or 4 speed auto tranny in their line. |
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vanagonjr
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Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3635
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting tidbit about 1st Chrysler mini-van, maybe the Vanagon was not so out-gunned in the engine department after all.
"Chrysler planned for a V6, but it took some time to arrange one. The first vans had the new 2.2 liter four, starting at 86 hp and eventually rising to 93, with an optional Mitsubishi 2.6 that had slightly more power (the very first production minivan was a Plymouth Voyager with the Mitsubishi engine — Chrysler probably regrets both engine and brand choice now). The van’s weight was around 3,000 pounds, and the four-cylinders were “good enough” for the time — at least, until something better was available. They were comparable to the slant six powered intermediate cars and quicker than the slant six vans."
_________________
John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4573
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| MsTaboo wrote: |
| That underpowered leaky lump is the reason the Vanagon failed to become a hit in America. |
I think this has a little more to do with it than the Wasserboxer:
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But why did the Chrysler take off and outsell the Vanagon?
If you go back and read the press releases from that time they all talk about the lack of power in the Vanagon. It was pricier, heavier, and slower.
And, of course, the Chrysler was the home town favorite. Buy American was popular at the time.
By 1986 all VW had that was better was the 4x4 Syncro, and they failed to take advantage of that difference in advertising. It was even heavier, more expensive, and still underpowered!
With a more powerful engine VW could have crowed about the Syncro Vanagon's performance, capability, and compact size, helping to justify the higher price.
Hmmm…kinda like todays converted Syncros! 
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
All that's needed for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing.
Resist Kleptocratic Oligarchy (and Idiocracy)! |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| dkoesyncro wrote: |
To the bostig guy's,
How warm/hot is your deck lid getting? Prior poster mentioned building a proper exhaust manifold.
I'm just curious, I've noticed the photos put the exhaust close to the lid!
I've done an I4 swap and my deck lid gets quite warm. Ive got wrap and a turbo blanket with custom shielding in the works.
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Some time ago, I had a few p-mails with Jim re: engine lid heat. FWIW, I recently removed the OEM air cooled insulation from my engine lid. (it was getting old, grotty and failing due to abrasion between top of TB and likely mice.  )
My engine lid is "tubbed", so much more prone to getting hot, I think, but without that insulation it gets pretty dang hot.
Point is, the tub is around the intake, valve cover. Some exhaust manifold heat must get up there but I'd guess that most of the heat is from the top of the engine.
However. In spite of the heat, the plastic cover on the OEM material did not appear to have melted.
My Jetta 2.0 engine is NA.
Neil.
lid at time of swap
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 8472
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
As I've read it,
One of the main reasons VW put a water jacket on the Boxer and threw it into the Vanagon was due to the shortage of inline 4's to use in production. |
Personal opinion: "Shortage" is a bit misleading. Considering VW manufactured millions of inline-4's in Brazil, Mexico, and Germany, from 1.1L to 2.0L, from the '70s to the '90s, there was never a "shortage" of engines. I think VW simply wanted, right or wrong, to keep the boxer power plant that was standard fare for all Type 2's, hence giving it a water jacket to help with emissions demands; otherwise they would not have contracted with Oettinger to produce a flat-6 for potential production.
Yes, there were diesel I-4's put in the T3, but there were only 3 and were pretty darn anemic:
- CS 1.6L (naturally-aspirated 52 bhp)
- JX 1.6L (turbo'd 70 bhp)
- KY 1.7L (naturally-aspirated 54 bhp)
To my knowledge, ^those three I-4 diesels were T3-only engines.
Compare ^that list to the boxers:
- CT 1.6L (carb, 50 bhp, AC)
- CU/CV 2.0L (FI, 70 bhp, AC)
- DF 1.9L (carb, 59 bhp, WC)
- DG 1.9L (carb, 76 bhp, WC)
- DH 1.9L (FI, 80 bhp, WC)
- EY 1.9L (carb, 56 bhp, WC)
- GW 1.9L (FI, 89 bhp, WC)
- SP 1.9L (carb, 72 bhp, Switzerland-only, WC)
- DJ 2.1L (FI, 110 bhp, WC)
- MV 2.1L (FI, 94 bhp, WC)
- SR 2.1L (FI, 86 bhp, Switzerland-only, WC)
- SS 2.1L (FI, 91 bhp, WC)
As for the topic at hand, I'm not a Ford person whatsoever, but I'm warming up to the idea of a Zetec being in my van... still not 100% sold on it, though. However, a friend will be trading the family TDI Jetta in for a Subaru... I told him that if the car gets wrecked, I get dibs on the engine.
| MsTaboo wrote: |
| That underpowered leaky lump is the reason the Vanagon failed to become a hit in America. |
I think this has a little more to do with it than the Wasserboxer:
Even the front-engine, more powerful, less leaky, "there's nothing mini about it, but it still fits in your garage" Eurovan didn't even begin to make a dent in Chrysler sales. Despite the power-plant pitfalls, which vans are still running around with a serious cult following and high resale values? It ain't the ChryCo vans...
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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