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Message |
cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 21010
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| iamdonquixote wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| iamdonquixote wrote: |
thanks !
can you check my assumptions:
* I think a slightly lowered bus will handle better and be better in crosswinds
* I think a straight axle bus will be quieter than reduct boxes
- with low profile and skinnier tires I'm guessing they are the standard load C rating tires correct ? |
Yes, simply by the nature of a lower center of gravity, it will handle better and be better in crosswinds. But, making sure your steering is tight is the #1 priority.
Yes, a straight axle setup is much more quiet, simply by removing the straight gut gears of the reduction boxes.
Lower profile, but not necessarily skinny. Yes they will have a lower load rating, but simply by the nature of having shorter sidewalls, they tend to be stiffer. Buying good quality tires with a nod to performance helps with that stiffer sidewall construction too.
I have a theory that using tires with a "proper" load rating on a stock height bus has less to do with the actual load carrying capability than it does with having stiff sidewalls for proper handling of a tall vehicle. Low profile tires generally aren't available with high load ratings, but are stiffer simply through their construction, and the physics of leverage. |
thanks! you are helping me in to the 'dark' side.
I kinda think the obsession with proper load rated tires matters less than people think it does. |
Driving a stock height bus on wobbly passenger car tires is nowhere near as nice as when it has load rated tires, especially at highway speeds in the mountains or in strong winds.
_________________
Confusious say it takes it takes two wipes to know you need three, but it takes three wipes to know it only needed two. |
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iamdonquixote
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2003
Posts: 2087
Location: M*ssholia
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 11:44 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| iamdonquixote wrote: |
thanks !
can you check my assumptions:
* I think a slightly lowered bus will handle better and be better in crosswinds
* I think a straight axle bus will be quieter than reduct boxes
- with low profile and skinnier tires I'm guessing they are the standard load C rating tires correct ? |
Yes, simply by the nature of a lower center of gravity, it will handle better and be better in crosswinds. But, making sure your steering is tight is the #1 priority.
Yes, a straight axle setup is much more quiet, simply by removing the straight gut gears of the reduction boxes.
Lower profile, but not necessarily skinny. Yes they will have a lower load rating, but simply by the nature of having shorter sidewalls, they tend to be stiffer. Buying good quality tires with a nod to performance helps with that stiffer sidewall construction too.
I have a theory that using tires with a "proper" load rating on a stock height bus has less to do with the actual load carrying capability than it does with having stiff sidewalls for proper handling of a tall vehicle. Low profile tires generally aren't available with high load ratings, but are stiffer simply through their construction, and the physics of leverage. |
thanks! you are helping me in to the 'dark' side.
I kinda think the obsession with proper load rated tires matters less than people think it does. |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 21010
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 11:37 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| iamdonquixote wrote: |
thanks !
can you check my assumptions:
* I think a slightly lowered bus will handle better and be better in crosswinds
* I think a straight axle bus will be quieter than reduct boxes
- with low profile and skinnier tires I'm guessing they are the standard load C rating tires correct ? |
Yes, simply by the nature of a lower center of gravity, it will handle better and be better in crosswinds. But, making sure your steering is tight is the #1 priority.
Yes, a straight axle setup is much more quiet, simply by removing the straight gut gears of the reduction boxes.
Lower profile, but not necessarily skinny. Yes they will have a lower load rating, but simply by the nature of having shorter sidewalls, they tend to be stiffer. Buying good quality tires with a nod to performance helps with that stiffer sidewall construction too.
I have a theory that using tires with a "proper" load rating on a stock height bus has less to do with the actual load carrying capability than it does with having stiff sidewalls for proper handling of a tall vehicle. Low profile tires generally aren't available with high load ratings, but are stiffer simply through their construction, and the physics of leverage.
_________________
Confusious say it takes it takes two wipes to know you need three, but it takes three wipes to know it only needed two. |
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iamdonquixote
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2003
Posts: 2087
Location: M*ssholia
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 11:10 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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thanks !
can you check my assumptions:
* I think a slightly lowered bus will handle better and be better in crosswinds
* I think a straight axle bus will be quieter than reduct boxes
- with low profile and skinnier tires I'm guessing they are the standard load C rating tires correct ? |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 21010
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 9:21 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| iamdonquixote wrote: |
can't believe I'm posting here. thinking about lowering a bus !
I want to :
* use drop spindles in front 2.5 or 3.5 "
* straight axle kit.
I only have one question:
can I use my stock tires and wheels, and if not, what tires ?
the extra price of tires to lower bus might turn me off from the whole shebang |
Up front, you will need shorter and narrower tires. I usually ran 196/60 15's, or maybe 55's with 3 1/2" drop spindles. That was always with later buses with thin lip dog legs. Might not work as well with fat lip dog legs. Never had much issue with turning clearance, but it would rub the top of the wheel well when full loaded and hitting large highway bumps.
Out back, your stock tire might work, depending on what tire brand/model/size you have. I liked 205/60 15's. I had a pair of wheels modded to change the backspacing and ran some meaty 205/65's and they fit perfectly.
Drop spindles, straight axle, 195/60R15 front, 205/65R15 out back on those modded bus wheels I spoke of. This bus went many places it probably shouldn't have considering the mods.
_________________
Confusious say it takes it takes two wipes to know you need three, but it takes three wipes to know it only needed two. |
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iamdonquixote
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2003
Posts: 2087
Location: M*ssholia
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 8:36 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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can't believe I'm posting here. thinking about lowering a bus !
I want to :
* use drop spindles in front 2.5 or 3.5 "
* straight axle kit.
I only have one question:
can I use my stock tires and wheels, and if not, what tires ?
the extra price of tires to lower bus might turn me off from the whole shebang |
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borninabus
Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4784
Location: Arizona Highways
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2025 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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anybody out there?
_________________
88 Van WBX, A/T - 93 Multivan 5cyl 5M/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport |
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borninabus
Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4784
Location: Arizona Highways
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2025 9:40 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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Koni "Red" Special D Part Numbers & Specs compiled from TheSamba & Koni
80-1044SP20: Porsche 356 Front
Bound: 200psi
Rebound: 1350psi
Compression/Extension: 9"/14"
80-1350: Beetle (Swing) Rear
Bound: 600psi
Rebound: 1050psi
Compression/Extension: 10.25"/15.25"
80-1349: Beetle (LP) Front
Bound: 450psi
Rebound: 900psi
Compression/Extension: 10.25"/15.25"
looking for front shocks for a 67 DLX that i'm working on. 2" narrowed beam by Brian_e. it sits @ approx 12" and compresses to approx 10" with no shock installed. running EMPI Fuchs, 15x4.5 with 195/55/15 tires. asking the expert's opinions on what my best option is. thanks!
_________________
88 Van WBX, A/T - 93 Multivan 5cyl 5M/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport
Last edited by borninabus on Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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skitzoidbugger
Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2006
Posts: 114
Location: NE Florida
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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Sooo…I’m standing here staring at my spindles. (66 DC). I’m thinking of flipping them myself..I mean, what could POSSIBLY go wrong…right..?..lol. The videos available are a little sketchy.
I can grind out the relief for clearance and weld in some additional support. I get that part. But, I’m having issues wrapping my head around the final flip configuration. Wouldn’t I also need to swap the steering arms from left to right? It seems simply flipping would position the arm pointing forward…???
Anybody done this?
_________________
Measure carefully..metal stretchers are expensive. |
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lil_azza
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2012
Posts: 250
Location: somerset
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2024 2:45 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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What bushes are people usually using once they have narrowed the original beam? Im going to go 4” its a 61 beam
_________________
70 early bay
71 deluxe beetle
58 rhd beetle
69 karmann cabriolet
61 panel bus |
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chris henry
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2004
Posts: 872
Location: porterville ,CA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| tdubz510 wrote: |
| NUTSFORBUSES wrote: |
| If you're not trying to install really wide tires on this project, just go forward. You can get some rear disc's from AC industries that mount-up to the axle-but wait until you see where this falls-clearance, b/c all buses can differ a little. Mine IS beetle, but earlier and I have the OG bus spring plates. The most important addition was the Mid Mount to keep it from twisting off the front trans mount<a lot of power 2332. You will also find a little bit of raising the front as you lower the back, not much, but keep it mind. 15's allow for a lot of tire choice. Your 65 should have 14's and I would do that also in the front(15's) it's only 1/2 " higher w/o tire considerations. I did mine w the help and knowledge from cdennisg, maybe poke at his head a bit, he knows his stuff. |
Nice lowering job! Where do I find this Mid Mount for the trans? |
Wolfgang international makes an awesome mid mount. bolts right in, zero drilling and zero welding. Also keep in mind that a 27 inch tall tire is great for a stock height bus but you will probably be stressed to squeeze something that big in once lowered. Going with a lower profile tire like a 65 series will not only fit better but will also lower your final gearing down some making the combo a bettter match for your engine. |
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tdubz510
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2019
Posts: 64
Location: CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| NUTSFORBUSES wrote: |
| If you're not trying to install really wide tires on this project, just go forward. You can get some rear disc's from AC industries that mount-up to the axle-but wait until you see where this falls-clearance, b/c all buses can differ a little. Mine IS beetle, but earlier and I have the OG bus spring plates. The most important addition was the Mid Mount to keep it from twisting off the front trans mount<a lot of power 2332. You will also find a little bit of raising the front as you lower the back, not much, but keep it mind. 15's allow for a lot of tire choice. Your 65 should have 14's and I would do that also in the front(15's) it's only 1/2 " higher w/o tire considerations. I did mine w the help and knowledge from cdennisg, maybe poke at his head a bit, he knows his stuff. |
Nice lowering job! Where do I find this Mid Mount for the trans? |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 21010
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 11:37 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| tdubz510 wrote: |
YES! I am really trying to get this dialed in because I DO want to drive this bus to lots of campouts and shows. So, how do I figure out what my gearing should be for a 1776cc cruising at 60-65mph on 27" tires?
Also, if the 3.88 with 0.82 4th is too tall, should I have a 1904cc, and get rid of the 1776cc? |
Found this in the performance forum FAQ's...
http://johnmaherracing.com/calculators/gear-ratio-calculator/
_________________
Confusious say it takes it takes two wipes to know you need three, but it takes three wipes to know it only needed two. |
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tdubz510
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2019
Posts: 64
Location: CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
OK. Have you ever ridden a 10 speed, or maybe a 21 speed bicycle? Shifting to the small gear up front and the big gear out back makes it really easy to pedal, but as you change gears and go faster, it requires more and more strength and energy to keep your speed. When you are at the largest cog up front and the smallest cog out back going 25 MPH, it gets really tiring to pedal that hard and keep the pace.
That is a tall gear, and that is what your little VW engine is trying to accomplish. VW engines have a sweet spot in their RPM range for maximum power, maximum efficiency, and ideal cooling fan speed. Generally that is in the 3200-3800 RPM range. What you want is your final drive ration to match your ideal highway cruising speed, and your ideal RPM. If your gearing is too tall, your RPM might be too low to have the power to push the bus down the road, and your cooling fan is turning too slow to keep the engine cool as designed.
All of these things need to be brought into play to make things work. If you only cruise your bus to the local show on weekends, and maybe for ice cream on Sunday with the kids, it is less important. If you drive your bus for hundreds or thousands of miles of highway seeking the ultimate camp spot or swap meet, you gotta get this shit dialed in. |
YES! I am really trying to get this dialed in because I DO want to drive this bus to lots of campouts and shows. So, how do I figure out what my gearing should be for a 1776cc cruising at 60-65mph on 27" tires?
Also, if the 3.88 with 0.82 4th is too tall, should I have a 1904cc, and get rid of the 1776cc? |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 21010
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| tdubz510 wrote: |
Wanting to get rid of my reduction boxes and drive my bus more on long road trips at freeway speeds.
I have a recently rebuilt 3.88/.82 small nut Type 2 gearbox on my 61 camper with stock wheels and tires and a 1776cc engine. I'm considering using my bus transmission with a straight axle conversion. I think I will need to flip the diff or something..
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I had to go back to see what you are starting with. That tall fourth and .82 ring and pinion combined with the small nut RGB gearing might have worked out well with stock diameter bus tires, but when you go to straight axle and lose that RGB reduction, things change drastically.
_________________
Confusious say it takes it takes two wipes to know you need three, but it takes three wipes to know it only needed two. |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 21010
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| Daddybus wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
I know that calculator exists, but I'm not sure where. |
3.88 with a .82 is going to be way too much gear for a 1776 to push...unless you always drive down hill or are on the salt flats at Bonneville |
Really? So will my RPM's be really high if I'm pushing 65mph with a 1776 and 3.88 with a 0.82? Not sure what you mean by "way too much gear". What should a 1776 have? |
Pretty sure he means the gearing is way too tall. Not enough RPM at a given
speed for the amount of power your engine can provide. |
I guess I need a schooling on "too tall of a gear"? I am clearly a newbie. Does that mean it will take a while to get up to a high enough RPM to shift with my 1776? Maybe my transmission guy gave me the wrong numbers? My 1st gear is really a short run til I shift to 2nd... and 2nd to 3rd is pretty short run as well. I was cruising at 70mph on a 200 mile road trip. I'm confused, sorry guys. |
OK. Have you ever ridden a 10 speed, or maybe a 21 speed bicycle? Shifting to the small gear up front and the big gear out back makes it really easy to pedal, but as you change gears and go faster, it requires more and more strength and energy to keep your speed. When you are at the largest cog up front and the smallest cog out back going 25 MPH, it gets really tiring to pedal that hard and keep the pace.
That is a tall gear, and that is what your little VW engine is trying to accomplish. VW engines have a sweet spot in their RPM range for maximum power, maximum efficiency, and ideal cooling fan speed. Generally that is in the 3200-3800 RPM range. What you want is your final drive ration to match your ideal highway cruising speed, and your ideal RPM. If your gearing is too tall, your RPM might be too low to have the power to push the bus down the road, and your cooling fan is turning too slow to keep the engine cool as designed.
All of these things need to be brought into play to make things work. If you only cruise your bus to the local show on weekends, and maybe for ice cream on Sunday with the kids, it is less important. If you drive your bus for hundreds or thousands of miles of highway seeking the ultimate camp spot or swap meet, you gotta get this shit dialed in.
_________________
Confusious say it takes it takes two wipes to know you need three, but it takes three wipes to know it only needed two. |
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tdubz510
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2019
Posts: 64
Location: CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| Daddybus wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
I know that calculator exists, but I'm not sure where. |
3.88 with a .82 is going to be way too much gear for a 1776 to push...unless you always drive down hill or are on the salt flats at Bonneville |
Really? So will my RPM's be really high if I'm pushing 65mph with a 1776 and 3.88 with a 0.82? Not sure what you mean by "way too much gear". What should a 1776 have? |
Pretty sure he means the gearing is way too tall. Not enough RPM at a given
speed for the amount of power your engine can provide. |
I guess I need a schooling on "too tall of a gear"? I am clearly a newbie. Does that mean it will take a while to get up to a high enough RPM to shift with my 1776? Maybe my transmission guy gave me the wrong numbers? My 1st gear is really a short run til I shift to 2nd... and 2nd to 3rd is pretty short run as well. I was cruising at 70mph on a 200 mile road trip. I'm confused, sorry guys. |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 21010
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| tdubz510 wrote: |
| Daddybus wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
I know that calculator exists, but I'm not sure where. |
3.88 with a .82 is going to be way too much gear for a 1776 to push...unless you always drive down hill or are on the salt flats at Bonneville |
Really? So will my RPM's be really high if I'm pushing 65mph with a 1776 and 3.88 with a 0.82? Not sure what you mean by "way too much gear". What should a 1776 have? |
Pretty sure he means the gearing is way too tall. Not enough RPM at a given speed for the amount of power your engine can provide.
_________________
Confusious say it takes it takes two wipes to know you need three, but it takes three wipes to know it only needed two. |
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tdubz510
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2019
Posts: 64
Location: CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| Daddybus wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
I know that calculator exists, but I'm not sure where. |
3.88 with a .82 is going to be way too much gear for a 1776 to push...unless you always drive down hill or are on the salt flats at Bonneville |
Really? So will my RPM's be really high if I'm pushing 65mph with a 1776 and 3.88 with a 0.82? Not sure what you mean by "way too much gear". What should a 1776 have? |
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Daddybus
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2000
Posts: 1662
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:59 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
I know that calculator exists, but I'm not sure where. |
3.88 with a .82 is going to be way too much gear for a 1776 to push...unless you always drive down hill or are on the salt flats at Bonneville |
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