| Author |
Message |
jberger
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476
|
 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
 |
|
| For what it's worth, I have reshaped adjusting screws on probably a dozen air and water cooled engines. My method of choice is chucking them up in a drill and profiling with a flapper wheel on my angle grinder, spinning the drill slowly while doing so. Afterward I polish the face with 1000/1500/2000 grit papers laid over a folded shop towel (to allow for cush) still chucked up in the drill on its highest speed. They come out slightly radius'd looking like a mirror. I have serviced the majority of these engines for years afterward and have not had any issues. That said, my personal modified WBX's receive swivel foot adjusters. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
bobbyblack 
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4694
Location: United States, Iowa
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
|
|
I am assuming that the "swivel feet" 10C mentions above are these, from CB Performance as well.
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1523.htm
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5938
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
|
|
| Steve M. wrote: |
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
Shane and Eddie at The Bug Shop in Delta always re-shape and re-harden the ends of the adjusters when they rebuild heads.
Steve's photo is the reason why! |
What are they doing to harden them up?
Acetylene Torch and cold water? |
I think they quenched in oil - but it was just an aside eight or nine years ago when I picked up my van after they rebuilt the heads on my last WBX engine.
About a year before I went Subaru.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7.5 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6933
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
|
|
| tencentlife wrote: |
| Quote: |
Ah, right; one or the other has to be "sacrificial".
|
| Quote: |
I was under the impression that these adjusting screws were "hardened" steel, but I was able to use sandpaper to reface them.
|
The screws you resurfaced, Steve, appear to have been insufficiently hardened and had already had the hardening mostly worn thru, so you were able to abrade them further with ease. But they were already on a death spiral of wear and by grinding them down further you've exposed the softer base metal. If you use your resurfaced screws, I would anticipate them wearing down pretty quickly. You could run them for a short time and see how they're holding up, buy my guess is they won't do very well, |
Oh that's a given! I expect after 10 miles the wear pattern has taken shape on these. Actually the first ten minutes!
It did not take me long to resurface them and it was only one sheet of sandpaper for four screws so that right there says how strong they were.
I ordered the caps for them, but I expect they will wear to fit the inside of the caps in short order.
Thank you for the great information about these. It's a great help to all.
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10157
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
|
|
| Quote: |
Ah, right; one or the other has to be "sacrificial".
|
No, two elements like this that work against each other under high pressure have to be nearly matched in hardness when made. They will quickly work-harden to an identical hardness under the heat and pressure of operation, just as a new cam and lifters do. Only by having equal hardness can the parts survive each other, if one is too much softer to begin with, it will begin wearing immediately rather than work-harden and that sacrifice will be short in coming.
VW's valve adjusting screws and quality replacements are deeply hardened, in fact a screw like this is small enough that, if they chose certain alloys to make them from, the hardening may have been all the way thru with the OEM parts, rather than just a thin "case" at the surface, maybe .030-.050" deep, which is probably all you get with the cheaper alternatives. Quality valve stems are made with martensitic stainless alloys, whose hardness increases with temperature, or faced with Stellite, an extremely hard proprietary alloy, so whatever screw works against that has to be very hard to start with.
| Quote: |
I was under the impression that these adjusting screws were "hardened" steel, but I was able to use sandpaper to reface them.
|
Hardened steels can only be cut by a cutter of a harder material, which is where carbide cutters come in, or they must be ground. So even with a hardened item, a sufficiently hard abrasive will cut it, and most common abrasives are much harder than even well-hardened steel.
The screws you resurfaced, Steve, appear to have been insufficiently hardened and had already had the hardening mostly worn thru, so you were able to abrade them further with ease. But they were already on a death spiral of wear and by grinding them down further you've exposed the softer base metal. If you use your resurfaced screws, I would anticipate them wearing down pretty quickly. You could run them for a short time and see how they're holding up, buy my guess is they won't do very well, they would need to be re-hardened after the shaping you did.
Metals tempering and hardening is one of the most complex subjects one could ever dig into. It's possible to do decent case-hardening with an oxy-acetylene flame, the right quench medium, and a lot of knowledge and practice, but it would take a very practiced craftsman to produce anything like the depth and hardness of the OEM adjuster screws. GoWesty even had an article about their travails in finding good adjuster screws.
Every wbx I ever built had Porsche-style swivel-foot adjusters. They're also very hard but because of the way they engage the valve stem with a flat foot that covers the surface of the stem end and slides across it, the point loading is much less so hardness is less a factor there. Where it matters most with these instead is the ball and socket interface. I used almost exclusively CB Performance's 8mm swivel-feet and their "Rhino" brand 9mm ones, that's over 700 individual adjusters by me alone and never a failure with either type. Some early 1.9 wbx's had 9mm adjusters, but most wbx's got 10mm, and I don't know of anywhere to get 10mm swivel-feet.
But apart from the screw threading, wbx rockers and Type1 rockers are identical, so it's no biggy to replace your rocker gear with a used set of Bug rockers, or an aftermarket set, in which case you could go up to a 1.25 lift ratio (stock is 1.1) and gain a little more top-end power. To use swivel-feet the nose of the rocker needs to be ground down about .060" and about .090" in shims put under the rocker blocks to make room for the foot. With the stock steel pushrods this combo sets up a fairly neutral rocker swing geometry, so you don't need to mess with that. CB sells a full 1.25 8mm set so if you want to go that route, here's the ticket:
http://www.cbperformance.com/Super-Stock-Rocker-Arm-Complete-Kit-1-25-1-Ratio-p/1685.htm
It comes with 4 .060" shims so you'll need to order a set of 4 .030" shims too to get the needed .090" under the rocker blocks:
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1535.htm
You kit comes with round shims to set up the rocker side-positioning and clearance. They say you need a big-mouth pushrod tube for the 1.25 ratio but they work fine with stock tubes, you might just have to flare the edge of som eof the tube ends in the rocker box if any pushrods are rubbing.
Your valve stem tips need to be flat to use swivel-feet, but as soft as those screws looked to be, your stems are probably about perfect. One of the beautiful things about swivel feet is they never deform the valve stem at all.
There are a few folks who claim that swivel-feet won't work with hydraulic lifters because they're never relaxed so no oil can get into the ball-and socket joint, but they don't speak from experience and you can ignore them.
_________________
Shop for unique and useful Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
also available at VanCafe.com!
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is death to doctrine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6933
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
|
|
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
Shane and Eddie at The Bug Shop in Delta always re-shape and re-harden the ends of the adjusters when they rebuild heads.
Steve's photo is the reason why! |
What are they doing to harden them up?
Acetylene Torch and cold water?
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5938
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
|
|
Shane and Eddie at The Bug Shop in Delta always re-shape and re-harden the ends of the adjusters when they rebuild heads.
Steve's photo is the reason why!
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7.5 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6933
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
|
|
| AndyBees wrote: |
Steve M.
The adjusting screws in my 83, 2.0 Air-cool engine, look pretty much like those in your photos. I purchased the Van in 85 with 49k miles on it. At about 190k miles, I installed new heads. When I moved the rocker arms over to the new heads was when I discovered the condition of the adjusting screws.
I'm just curious as to how far down the screw is the hardness. |
Yes you could do that, those were one of the years I found to be with the same part numbers for the screw.
From what I have seen from the websites there are some 9mm screws and 10mm screws out there. They obviously will not fit, but you need to know which size you have.
I think the 9mm were on the 1.9 wbx's.
Mine are the 10mm size.
I do not know how far down the length of the screw the hardness was applied if that is what you are thinking. I would assume the whole screw was hardened.
Without any design documentation or a whole set of known oem quality screws and a Rockwell hardness tester to compare against replacement screws available there is no way I would know how good they are until they are put into use. The only way to tell if you have "good" screws is by seeing how they look after being removed. If they look like mine they are definitely not good!
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bulli Klinik
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 2235
Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
|
|
It's doubtful that any of the surface hardening is left on the adjusters you modified. To find out if steel has been hardened or not, run a file across the surface. If it leaves a mark, soft, if it doesn't, hard.
Lash caps are available through Scat and other vendors for half of what was mentioned. [url] http://www.scatvw.com/product/hardened-valve-lash-caps/[/url]
I just bought a set of Scat ratio rockers and was surprised to find 10mm, swivel foot adjusters in the set. These are the Ford Courier style. I'm not sure if they are available separately. All the swivels I've used in the past from them have been 8mm.
By the way, a full set of ratio rockers with adjusters and a solid shaft from Scat is less than a full set of screws from VW.
_________________
PM me about quality metal-work on your vehicle.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2684
Location: Southeast Kentucky
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
|
|
Steve M.
The adjusting screws in my 83, 2.0 Air-cool engine, look pretty much like those in your photos. I purchased the Van in 85 with 49k miles on it. At about 190k miles, I installed new heads. When I moved the rocker arms over to the new heads was when I discovered the condition of the adjusting screws.
I'm just curious as to how far down the screw is the hardness.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI, two trips to Alaska, 2014 & 16. 1989 Tin-top unmolested.
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine, seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. 1975 Bay hopeful. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52689
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Solution Found. |
|
|
Lash caps fit over the ends of the valve stems, they pretty much stop wear to the end of the stems, they may well offer some reduction in the adjuster screw wear and probably stop the valve guide wear caused by badly worn screws. They can also be used to "lengthen" older valve stems making up for hundreds of thousands of miles and several valve jobs worth of wear.
You can buy M10x1 elephant foot adjusters, but they are pretty rare. There is a guy on the Bay forum who has bought them in bulk from Europe from time to time. I understand that one of the Ford engines uses them as well, but don't have the details.
I haven't a clue as to whether Type 1 rockers and elephant foot adjusters could be substituted for WBXer ones. Type 1's and Porsches use M8 screws verse M10 and you can still get real Porsche M8 elephant foot adjusters, but you will pay dearly for them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6933
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
|
|
Okay found a solution.
They are VW Part Number: 022.109.451
and you can find this part number on many engines. There are too many to list here!
There is a metal cap that fits over the end of the screw which is protecting the end of the screw.
And it is only $17.00 for the set.
Van Cafe Valve Adjuster Screw "Lash Caps"
http://www.van-cafe.com/page_2554_719/valve-adjuster-lash-cap-kit
GoWesty has them too for $20.00
http://www.gowesty.com/product/cylinder-heads/19373/lash-cap-set-for-valve-adjusters-
So depending on your preference there is a solution.
When you look at the picture your going to see these rectangular plates with holes in them. They are spacers to go under the rocker arm assembly to bring the shaft/fulcrum axis back out to compensate for the thickness of the cap on the end of the screw.
Another 20 bucks spent!
However, I still want an original set!
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6933
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
|
|
| IdahoDoug wrote: |
Steve,
That's a great solution with resurfacing them. I also found I had a few that were just whaled on and only bought a couple after discovering the price. I saved the old ones and carry one as several years ago a couple arrived at my door via the Rescue Squad app with a lifter noise that turned out to be a wrecked screw. I got them on their way literally with baling wire and something I can't recall.
Just added this to my list, to resurface a full set from my spare engine, and do a spring valve adjust with them. Can't believe I never even thought about what you did - thanks for all the great things you post, and in advance for what you'll think of next (!).
Doug |
Thanks Doug! Wait 'til you see my what I'm working on! 
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6933
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
|
|
| Wildthings wrote: |
I would not be surprised to find that the screws end up wearing very fast. My experience is that quality screws are needed here. I had a lot of problems with these screws when I was first trying to get my Syncro on the road 25 years ago. Couldn't find any that were worth putting it. For a couple of years I just replaced them every oil change. Eventually got a good set and never had a problem again.
You may want to check that the ends of your valve stems are nice a flat. They may have ended up being concave and will thus cause rapid wear of the screws. You can touch them up with a Dremil. You of course must cover everything well to keep the grindings for getting in places you don't want them to be. I stuff the valve box full of oily rags, covering everything but the one valve stem end I am then working on. |
I agree completely.
In fact no one has noticed it yet, but I did not do a perfect job of getting all of the pitting out. There is still some remains of the original pitting on some of them.
Looking at these screws I said these are junk metal and they are just going to do this again so I thought it wasn't worth getting them perfect, but good enough to get the job done.
I know I am going to be on the look out for good screws when I see a rocker arms open.
Also these are VW heads...do you think they used the same screws on other models just because of basic costs consciousness across the board.
So maybe a walk through a salvage yard may be worth the time if we knew if we could find them.
As the sourcing of less expensive parts has progressed over the years it would be nice if they used a metal that was better quality then recycled table lamps!
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52689
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
|
|
| The original screws are quite hard, can't say that they are as hard as the valve stems or not, but they barely wear. Low quality soft aftermarket screws can and will damage the valve stems once they have become worn and further more they will damage the valve guides because they a placing undue side forces on the stems. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10518
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
|
|
| djkeev wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Are the original screws case hardened or something similar? |
I do know that you want them to be softer than the valve stem.
One of the two has to give if push comes to shove, and to have a valve stem mushroomed by a hard adjuster would not be a good thing at all.
Dave |
Ah, right; one or the other has to be "sacrificial". And I now see Steves' comment: "I was under the impression that these adjusting screws were "hardened" steel, but I was able to use sandpaper to reface them."
Just curious. Nice to see some parts saved. I recall considering getting new adjuster screws at one point and being somewhat surprised at the price.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32988
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
|
|
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
I would not be surprised to find that the screws end up wearing very fast. My experience is that quality screws are needed here. I had a lot of problems with these screws when I was first trying to get my Syncro on the road 25 years ago. Couldn't find any that were worth putting it. For a couple of years I just replaced them every oil change. Eventually got a good set and never had a problem again.
|
Are the original screws case hardened or something similar? |
I honestly do not know to what level the adjustment screws are hardened.
I do know that you want them to be softer than the valve stem.
One of the two has to give if push comes to shove, and to have a valve stem mushroomed by a hard adjuster would not be a good thing at all.
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10518
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
|
|
| Wildthings wrote: |
I would not be surprised to find that the screws end up wearing very fast. My experience is that quality screws are needed here. I had a lot of problems with these screws when I was first trying to get my Syncro on the road 25 years ago. Couldn't find any that were worth putting it. For a couple of years I just replaced them every oil change. Eventually got a good set and never had a problem again.
|
Are the original screws case hardened or something similar?
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
0to60in6min
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006
Posts: 3460
Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
|
|
NICE ! ! thank you for the tip...
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
IdahoDoug
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10357
Location: N. Idaho
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Rocker Arm Valve Adjustment Screws worn out? Nah! |
|
|
Steve,
That's a great solution with resurfacing them. I also found I had a few that were just whaled on and only bought a couple after discovering the price. I saved the old ones and carry one as several years ago a couple arrived at my door via the Rescue Squad app with a lifter noise that turned out to be a wrecked screw. I got them on their way literally with baling wire and something I can't recall.
Just added this to my list, to resurface a full set from my spare engine, and do a spring valve adjust with them. Can't believe I never even thought about what you did - thanks for all the great things you post, and in advance for what you'll think of next (!).
Doug
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
