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Zundfolge1432 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Although it’s not right large oil pump with smaller galley case it can work. Yes it’s a backyard shade tree combination but if it fits tight I’ve see this work, also seen larger 8mm mounting holes used on 6mm studs. On those older cases people used a type 3 pump which is a tad bigger. Good decision to break it all down now you’ll know everything Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:50 am    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Will not work with the in/out cover, see the extra port?
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jeromevw312
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

This engine is just stranger and stranger. While researching if the maxi style oil filter on it would work and differences of this being a single relief H case, I realized that this block has the small oil galleys, yet the pump is for large galleys. Great, this is why I am taking it apart to find the mistakes like this.
As luck would have it, I randomly have a new oil pump from a pic, and it is a small galley pump. Cool, except the pump mounting holes are for different size studs, granted this block already has bolts in it anyways, so it does fit in the case.

Im so confused with the small inlet vs. large inlet, 8mm vs 6mm, flat cam vs dished. But I think this other pump I have will work, and if so the plan is to drill and tap it and the block for full flow.

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jeromevw312
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
Yep that’s the old school cam and they idled smooth with duals, if memory serves correct it pulled from 2500 to 4500. They called it a hot street cam around 431 lift 284 duration. Scat had the C-35, bugpack had 4063. All of them very similar spec. I also noticed that old H case doesn’t have inserts for cylinder studs. If the case passes muster I’d install them. About the scratch on bearings could be a dirty assembly area, you cannot be too clean when building.


Yea, I have read about the H case being about the least desirable case there is, particularly soft and susceptible to pulling head studs. Inserts are cheap enough, and something I could handle myself with a drill press. Now the decision is do I just get case savers for 10mm studs or get a set of savers for 8mm studs and spring for a new set of 8mm head studs.

Considering I have an undesirable H case, undesirable 87mm pistons, and mismatched head castings this is shaping up to be quite the undesirable engine, lol. At the same time, it’s still worth putting together rather than calling it all a bunch of junk.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Yep that’s the old school cam and they idled smooth with duals, if memory serves correct it pulled from 2500 to 4500. They called it a hot street cam around 431 lift 284 duration. Scat had the C-35, bugpack had 4063. All of them very similar spec. I also noticed that old H case doesn’t have inserts for cylinder studs. If the case passes muster I’d install them. About the scratch on bearings could be a dirty assembly area, you cannot be too clean when building.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Had some time tonight to tear the engine apart some more. Started with removing the sump, it seams like a quality old school piece.

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Then I removed the cylinders and pistons. The wristpin on number 4 was really tight, the piston really did not want to move on it, and it really took some effort to get it out. wristpin bushing might be a little off, forgot to take a pic of that. First reaction after getting pistons off is rods look like there was some material removed if an effort to balance them.

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Then I removed all of the engine hardware and bolts, and gave a few taps on the end to loosen the oil pump. I do not want to completely split it yet since the flywheel is still attached. I need to either borrow a small compressor or preferably a torquemeister tool to remove it before completely splitting. I figure getting it off the crankshaft after it is removed could prove even more challenging.

A few taps and the oil pump loosened right up. Pulled it out, and found and Engle W110 cam. Not sure if this is good or not, I wanted something more than stock, but isn’t a w110 a little big for a 1641? I really know nothing about building engines and cams, other than a w110 is probably the most popular ever made and seems common in 1776 builds.



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Last thing I removed the #1 connecting rod. There are some marks, but I cannot say they look worn. Not really sure what to make of the marks. Crankshaft journal looked clean with no ridges I guess.


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Now to see if any local VW friends have the torquemeister tool or borrow a small compressor so I can try my luck with an impact gun. I do at least have a flywheel lock and a 36mm socket.

Any thoughts on the marks on the bearings?

How would the combination of the w110 work in a 1641 with an 019 , 36 dells and a tri-mill Thing exhaust?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

if you dont know wht you are doing find somebody who does. and prefurably somebody who has a vw car that runs good all the time, and is driven a lot and dosent pour oil or smoke...or knock.. and that you know that they built it...not took to somebody else and says they built it... or do it your self and ask all the questions you can think of!!!! then...ask the questions you dont want to ask.then ask the questions you cant think of...just dont eff it up!!! but if you do....then ask the questions that you should of asked before effing it up. good luck!!!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

jeromevw312 wrote:
Bruce Amacker wrote:
Pry up and down on the flywheel with a screwdriver, and in/out (behind the pulley and flywheel) to measure crank endplay. Both measurements should be almost nothing (.005" or less). If the crank moves up and down or in and out, the case has to be split. It doesn't look like he split the case during the last work.

Getting the pump out will be very difficult with the case together. Like you said, the tool won't help. A heat gun and a sharp screwdriver might get it out but you might do damage too. This problem has been discussed here before (about a CB Maxi 2 pump) without a good answer. I've always split the case to get them out during overhaul, I know of no tool which will help without wrecking the pump. BTW, I prefer that style of filter/pump. The cover gasket is specific, it might be the same as a CB.

CC the heads, if they're the same it might be OK to run them assuming important measurements are the same. Were they opened up or just flycut to remove the step (for slight increase in CR)? There's chatter marks which is not good, can you feel those with your fingertip?

If the flywheel is tight I'd reseal the pump cover and run it. If the flywheel is loose it needs to come apart.

The Tom Wilson book is good but quite old, there's a new book out (in color) that might help. I bought it for S&G and agree with most things but there's a few glaring mistakes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOLKSWAGEN-ENGINES-REBUIL...2749.l2649

If you're a rookie buy both, along with a Bentley shop manual. I use the 71-79 Bentley for most stuff, I think it would cover your H case pretty well. Used copies are available here.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2329950

Run a compression test on the engine in your Thing to determine its health, maybe all it needs is PRTs or something simple. Oil leaks are much easier to fix than building an engine.


Im just going to open it up and take a look at what its got, I do not want to risk messing up the pump or mounting surface. I really want to know if it has a cam in it, and if not I would like something to help take advantage of the 36 DRLA dells I have for it.

Good to know I need a specific gasket for that style pump/filter, still not sure if it will work in a Thing with the Tri-Mil thing exhaust. Going to post that question in the Thing group.

Not sure what you mean by “chatter marks” guessing uneven milling? I will see if I can feel them with fingertips. The heads are definitely still stock bore size, I test fit them on the cylinders. I guess I need to CC them to make sure. machining is at-least equal.

Thanks for the tip on the more resent book, I was going to get the Wilson book, but something more modern would probably be better.

Good point on checking the compression on the engine that came in the Thing, I should see what I got before just pulling it.


That's probably the best way to go, take it apart and see for yourself what's inside.
That's what I would do.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Popcorn
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I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

babysnakes wrote:
Purchase this book and use it. It is THE BEST book for building an engine.

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Yes sir that book is a keeper. I really like the interchange section breaking things down in a way which is easy to understand.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Likely a stock crank then, not too many counter weighted ones out there that still have only 4 dowels.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Thank you all for the tips, I am going to split the case and see what I have and report back with pics.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

earthquake wrote:
Does it have a 4 or 8 dowel crank?

eQ


Unfortunately no, it has a 4 dowel crank, that would have been a good sign.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Ebel wrote:
At least one of those used heads looked cracked between the plug and seat. I wouldn’t waste time on them without checking that first.


I think you are referring to one of the used heads that was on the engine, I noticed that crack as well. I am hoping the other set of new but mismatched casting heads CC the same so I can use those instead, especially since they have bigger valves.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Bruce Amacker wrote:
Pry up and down on the flywheel with a screwdriver, and in/out (behind the pulley and flywheel) to measure crank endplay. Both measurements should be almost nothing (.005" or less). If the crank moves up and down or in and out, the case has to be split. It doesn't look like he split the case during the last work.

Getting the pump out will be very difficult with the case together. Like you said, the tool won't help. A heat gun and a sharp screwdriver might get it out but you might do damage too. This problem has been discussed here before (about a CB Maxi 2 pump) without a good answer. I've always split the case to get them out during overhaul, I know of no tool which will help without wrecking the pump. BTW, I prefer that style of filter/pump. The cover gasket is specific, it might be the same as a CB.

CC the heads, if they're the same it might be OK to run them assuming important measurements are the same. Were they opened up or just flycut to remove the step (for slight increase in CR)? There's chatter marks which is not good, can you feel those with your fingertip?

If the flywheel is tight I'd reseal the pump cover and run it. If the flywheel is loose it needs to come apart.

The Tom Wilson book is good but quite old, there's a new book out (in color) that might help. I bought it for S&G and agree with most things but there's a few glaring mistakes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOLKSWAGEN-ENGINES-REBUIL...2749.l2649

If you're a rookie buy both, along with a Bentley shop manual. I use the 71-79 Bentley for most stuff, I think it would cover your H case pretty well. Used copies are available here.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2329950

Run a compression test on the engine in your Thing to determine its health, maybe all it needs is PRTs or something simple. Oil leaks are much easier to fix than building an engine.


Im just going to open it up and take a look at what its got, I do not want to risk messing up the pump or mounting surface. I really want to know if it has a cam in it, and if not I would like something to help take advantage of the 36 DRLA dells I have for it.

Good to know I need a specific gasket for that style pump/filter, still not sure if it will work in a Thing with the Tri-Mil thing exhaust. Going to post that question in the Thing group.

Not sure what you mean by “chatter marks” guessing uneven milling? I will see if I can feel them with fingertips. The heads are definitely still stock bore size, I test fit them on the cylinders. I guess I need to CC them to make sure. machining is at-least equal.

Thanks for the tip on the more resent book, I was going to get the Wilson book, but something more modern would probably be better.

Good point on checking the compression on the engine that came in the Thing, I should see what I got before just pulling it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
^^^^ X2 What you’ve got is a bunch of parts that may or may not have been put together properly. It needs to come apart everything cleaned and all tolerances measured. Whoever built it knew enough to prelube the oil pump to prime it, thats a good sign. I’d be more interested in how many times case was align bored and thrust cut. Maybe theres a surprise inside like a counterweight Okrasa crankshaft, who knows. I’d have that thing apart quicker than a cat could lick his ass. Very Happy


Looks like I will be opening it up, here is to hoping...
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
The oil pump is just filled with white lithium assembly grease. Thats what it looks like after so many years.


That’s good news, I wasn’t sure what all that crud was, makes sense that it is assembly lube. At least I know it wasn’t ran after pump was installed.

Good sign
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Does it have a 4 or 8 dowel crank?

eQ
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

At least one of those used heads looked cracked between the plug and seat. I wouldn’t waste time on them without checking that first.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
The oil pump is just filled with white lithium assembly grease. Thats what it looks like after so many years.


That's why we use Vaseline aint it?
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