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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| Abscate wrote: |
I think the question is the thickness of the plate bring 13 mm, meaning itβs engaging 13 threads of the bolt. I would want to figure out the thread failure point of a steel bolt in that plate and be 5x above expected loads
The rough engineering rule of thumb is that depth equal 1.5x bolt diameter approximates tensile strength of bolt, but for a safety belt you want more fingers on that calculation. |
Did a bit more looking. First the factory captured nut is about 3/8"thick. I have Β½" so there are 30% more threads than factory has.
The chart shows the factory bolt would have 150k psi stripping strength. If mine were steel then I'd have 195k, but at 40% I'm down to 78k. This is a straight withdrawal capability. And I have a larger surface area behind the B pillar tin. My guess is if you put 150k of withdrawal on the factory nut, it would pull straight through the B pillar. So would 78,000 psi. So at what point does the human body fail? Surely way under a 78k psi load.
Caveat-- I have compared my system with an SAE grade 8 bolt against the factory metric components without trying to calculate the difference in diameter of the bolt nor the thread pitch. I'll let the nitpickers rework the math, but the differences can't be very great.
But as I said before, there is only a very small withdrawal force. Because of the "pulley" component of the attachment above the shoulder, almost all of the load is in sheer. When the belt stops, then the lever arm of the remaining amount of belt will try to lift the bolt out of the hole. I'm guessing here, but I'll bet the roller would fail long before the bolt and just rip the end of the belt free. No doubt, Wolfsburg did all of this testing to failure many times before they were satisfied. No doubt, these numbers are for failure. For a safe working load of 1/5 of failure, we are still way ahead what my aging bones and wasting muscle mass can withstand.
Given my greater surface area, I'm guessing in a failure test, I would out perform the factory attachment method.
This has been instructive and interesting for me, so thanks for encouraging my curiosity to discover some of the science behind what for me was obvious to all as seat-of-the-pants engineering. Or is it top-of-the-shoulder engineering?
Duncan |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 24341
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:46 am Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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I think the question is the thickness of the plate bring 13 mm, meaning itβs engaging 13 threads of the bolt. I would want to figure out the thread failure point of a steel bolt in that plate and be 5x above expected loads
The rough engineering rule of thumb is that depth equal 1.5x bolt diameter approximates tensile strength of bolt, but for a safety belt you want more fingers on that calculation.
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πΊπΈ πΊπΈ πΊπΈ πΊπΈ πΊπΈ πΊπΈ πΊπΈ π π π |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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A secure attachment for the retract seat belt mechanism. !/2" aluminum is not good enough? What do you use for criteria to assume that? In a crash, the loads are in shear, not withdrawal. Ultimately what determines the strength is the thickness of the B pillar steel and how the load is distributed. If it were 20 gauge, with a small load area, the bolt could deform the tin and tear the tin and create an oblong hole, angling the bolt and changing the load from pure shear to a combination including withdrawal. By having a large backing plate "nut " which won't allow the steel to deform, the loads will always remain in shear. My aluminum backing plate measures 3" x 7", 21 square inches of load transference. The factory used a welded captured nut with a distribution of around a single square inch. Even in a roll over, the likelihood of their being a withdrawal load is remote. Thread depth and the material is a function of withdrawal strength, which is not what is needed here. I used Β½" aluminum as I wanted a large "nut" to spread the load over as much of the B pillar material as possible. In addition, the aluminum is secured to the factory tin with 3M 5200 which will make elongation of the hole almost impossible.
Duncan |
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vanagonjr
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3669
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| DuncanS wrote: |
Moving seat belt anchor points is not a big deal.
In this case it was the lower. Cut a piece of Β½" aluminum, drilled and tapped. Removed the retract and eliminated the plastic lipstick cover, drilled holes for the new position.
Duncan |
1/2β aluminum is not strong enough due to lack of engagement length.
_________________
John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
Complete SA Grill Set-up for sale!
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2748907
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
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Spreader
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2022
Posts: 15
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| JimmyJagged wrote: |
| Spreader: Any updates? Are the wife and kids happy? |
Wife still thinks I'm nuts, but the kids love the van.
I bought the Westfalia repro cot kit from BusDepot. I did NOT buy the 3pt seatbelts for the rear-facing jump seat.
Buying one less part for the van was an easy sell.
And they're already rear facing... so inherently safer than either kid sitting on the back bench! Now I still have to get the 3pt belts installed for the bench, but don't remind my wife. |
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JimmyJagged
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 88
Location: San Juan Capistrano, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:49 am Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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Spreader: Any updates? Are the wife and kids happy?
_________________
Current:
1971 Tin Top Weekender Bus
1973 Squareback
1985 Pop Top Weekender Vanagon (my 19yo son's first car. father/son project)
1985 Pop Top Weekender Vanagon w/ 2.5 Subaru
Past:
1976 Rabbit diesel (my first car). RIP. totaled by drunk driver (not me!)
1973 Pop Top Westfalia Weekender Bus. RIP. Blown engine due to 25yo ignorant of VW maintenance (me).
1986 Vanagon Transporter. RIP. totaled by drunk driver (not me!)
1987 Vanagon Syncro. I never should have sold. |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:09 am Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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Moving seat belt anchor points is not a big deal. I wanted a jump seat and I also wanted the PS to be put in facing backwards The seat belt retractors are in the way so I moved them.
In this case it was the lower. Cut a piece of Β½" aluminum, drilled and tapped. Removed the retract and eliminated the plastic lipstick cover, drilled holes for the new position. Through the fresh air vent in the B pillar, put in the aluminum plate and held it in position with string and bolted it up. Would be no problem to move or install ones at the top either.
Duncan |
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JimmyJagged
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 88
Location: San Juan Capistrano, CA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:56 am Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| Spreader wrote: |
For now, the Mrs. has given me approval to NOT put in the rear facing 3pt seatbelt. So I'll be installing the cot as per usual - blocking the lower seatbelt bolt hole. |
Sounds good.
Here is another thread that has measurements and tips for installation.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701257&highlight=child+cot
_________________
Current:
1971 Tin Top Weekender Bus
1973 Squareback
1985 Pop Top Weekender Vanagon (my 19yo son's first car. father/son project)
1985 Pop Top Weekender Vanagon w/ 2.5 Subaru
Past:
1976 Rabbit diesel (my first car). RIP. totaled by drunk driver (not me!)
1973 Pop Top Westfalia Weekender Bus. RIP. Blown engine due to 25yo ignorant of VW maintenance (me).
1986 Vanagon Transporter. RIP. totaled by drunk driver (not me!)
1987 Vanagon Syncro. I never should have sold. |
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valvecovergasket
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 1504
Location: pnw
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:59 am Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| JimmyJagged wrote: |
Be sure to give us an update when you complete the installation. |
x2 definitely curious to see how you get on, take some pics ! |
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Spreader
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2022
Posts: 15
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:37 am Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| JimmyJagged wrote: |
That is why you will need to put both seatbelts in the top bolt hold location with a longer bolt like Hans suggested.
Be sure to give us an update when you complete the installation. |
For now, the Mrs. has given me approval to NOT put in the rear facing 3pt seatbelt. So I'll be installing the cot as per usual - blocking the lower seatbelt bolt hole. |
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JimmyJagged
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 88
Location: San Juan Capistrano, CA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| Spreader wrote: |
BusDepot got back to me as well
". In all the years we've sold this we've never had anyone tell us that they were unable to install the cot without removing their seatbelts"
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That is because you do not have to remove the front seat belts to install the cot brackets. Your problem is that the bottom bolt hold location will be covered by the cot bracket; as shown in my first picture. That is why you will need to put both seatbelts in the top bolt hold location with a longer bolt like Hans suggested.
Be sure to give us an update when you complete the installation.
_________________
Current:
1971 Tin Top Weekender Bus
1973 Squareback
1985 Pop Top Weekender Vanagon (my 19yo son's first car. father/son project)
1985 Pop Top Weekender Vanagon w/ 2.5 Subaru
Past:
1976 Rabbit diesel (my first car). RIP. totaled by drunk driver (not me!)
1973 Pop Top Westfalia Weekender Bus. RIP. Blown engine due to 25yo ignorant of VW maintenance (me).
1986 Vanagon Transporter. RIP. totaled by drunk driver (not me!)
1987 Vanagon Syncro. I never should have sold. |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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They are very desirable and bring good money. However you need both the floor sockets and the pedestal retaining bracket.
I took one out of a Carat and stuck it in my GL. Never mind the other weird stuff, just the bracket bolted to the rear of the PS pedestal.
the floor
And in place.
Duncan |
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BulliBill
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004
Posts: 4793
Location: St Charles, MO
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:47 am Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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Very cool cot, I'll have to check them out! No kids, but another handy spot to store clothing, goods when champing.
Hey, a question. Is there a market for those rear-facing and removable Vanagon jumpseats? I might have access to a complete mint rarely used silver one... Not gonna bother buying to re-sell it if there isn't a market for it... Bulky to ship too.
Bill
_________________
I'm looking for these license plate frames for my fleet:
Coeur D'Alene - Lake Shore Volkswagen
Mission VW - San Fernando
Thornton VW - Stockton
Thanks for any help! |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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Spreader
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2022
Posts: 15
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:51 am Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| JimmyJagged wrote: |
| Yep. And it is comfortable. |
You all sold me. I was considering the PVC frame cot for my daughter. But for the amount of work and still some cost, it's much more limited in size (and therefore use) than the full size cot.
BusDepot got back to me as well
". In all the years we've sold this we've never had anyone tell us that they were unable to install the cot without removing their seatbelts"
Probably because; people make it work. I'll make it work too.
For now, I've convinced my wife to ONLY make me buy the 3pt belts for the rear bench. The cot is ordered and we drive on!
Scheduled to pick up my Weekender in less than a month now and couldn't be more excited! |
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jlrftype7
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 4762
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| JimmyJagged wrote: |
Yep. And it is comfortable. It is the same length as the full size rear seat. I've slept there once  . It is more comfortable when I roll the window half-way down and I can stretch my legs. Funny to see the end of a sleeping bag hanging out the window. This is my son.
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Hmmm no go in my family. I am 6'4" and my son is 6'7".....  |
So, no legs hanging out of the window then?.... 
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
β84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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valvecovergasket
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 1504
Location: pnw
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| JimmyJagged wrote: |
| Yep. And it is comfortable. It is the same length as the full size rear seat. |
wow! awesome! |
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dobryan 
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17292
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| JimmyJagged wrote: |
Yep. And it is comfortable. It is the same length as the full size rear seat. I've slept there once . It is more comfortable when I roll the window half-way down and I can stretch my legs. Funny to see the end of a sleeping bag hanging out the window. This is my son.
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Hmmm no go in my family. I am 6'4" and my son is 6'7".....
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2010 Subaru EJ25 (Vanaru) and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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JimmyJagged
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 88
Location: San Juan Capistrano, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:18 am Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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| jlrftype7 wrote: |
| I'm liking Hans' suggestion of doubling up on the belt mounting, it's done all the time for 2nd row seat buckles in many vehicles, you just don't see it since the bolts are under the seat frame/cushion on those seats. |
I like that idea also. If you do that, then the child cot bracket should fit fine.
_________________
Current:
1971 Tin Top Weekender Bus
1973 Squareback
1985 Pop Top Weekender Vanagon (my 19yo son's first car. father/son project)
1985 Pop Top Weekender Vanagon w/ 2.5 Subaru
Past:
1976 Rabbit diesel (my first car). RIP. totaled by drunk driver (not me!)
1973 Pop Top Westfalia Weekender Bus. RIP. Blown engine due to 25yo ignorant of VW maintenance (me).
1986 Vanagon Transporter. RIP. totaled by drunk driver (not me!)
1987 Vanagon Syncro. I never should have sold. |
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jlrftype7
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 4762
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:04 am Post subject: Re: BusDepot front cot WITH 3pt seatlbelt on jump seat |
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I'm liking Hans' suggestion of doubling up on the belt mounting, it's done all the time for 2nd row seat buckles in many vehicles, you just don't see it since the bolts are under the seat frame/cushion on those seats.
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
β84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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