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SGKent 
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 Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 10:12 am Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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Thanks Steve - I thought that about the stainless also because they are softer than steel, but the Snapon hex sockets don't round, and they fit so well that there is no room for the hex in the plug to round either. I am hoping this is the last I will see of this problem. I did get a private message from someone on another engine forum that their machine shop stopped using steel plugs in aluminum anything because they could not control when they would leak. Sort of makes me wonder if many of the main oil seal leaks we hear of are really weeping steel galley plugs that have been put in. I'll know soon enough.
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Clatter
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Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 8:54 am Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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Glad to hear you found something to try.
It's when you're out of ideas it really sucks!
One good thing about aluminum galley plugs,
Pulling and re-doing isn't an option.
Leaks or no leaks! 
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SGKent
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 11:50 am Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| * Snapon makes really high quality hex sockets. They worked exceptionally well and did not round even though one of the 1/4 plugs took probably 60 -70 ft lbs to break it free. The cheaper black softer steel hex sockets would have rounded for sure. Suggest if you are going to work with hex plugs that are in tight, get the Snapon ones. |
One moans about the cost of tools until you hit a job like this when the quality of the bit makes the difference between job done and a major Charlie Foxtrot.
Well done, Steve…and tip of the hat to Strap-on. |
There are two or three Youtube channels that do real tool comparisons. As an example Project Farm, Torque Test Channel and a couple others who test tools. I usually just fast forward thru to the ratings or watch one test then the results. Don't need to see 10 wrench brands round bolts off. One can use some of these test results to choose the tools that give the best bang for the buck. In the hex socket test, SnapOn was so much better than the other brands, there was really no comparison. If one has ever rounded an allen head bolt or plug then they know what a pain it is from that moment forward.
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Abscate
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 3:01 am Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
update - the steel plugs and the long stainless are the ones that the loctite washed away on. The shorter stainless ones did not leak and were in really tight, it took a breaker bar to break them free *. Aluminum plugs in everything now, have one more behind the motor mount to do. Many of the steel ones had nothing left on the threads. I suspect that these are treated plugs so that the oil seeps into the pores, and even though they were cleaned, it prevented the loctite from curing properly. Not sure on that but the loctite external to the threads turned to powder really easy, sort of was like clay. The ones that stuck the loctite was more like an elastic sheet.
* Snapon makes really high quality hex sockets. They worked exceptionally well and did not round even though one of the 1/4 plugs took probably 60 -70 ft lbs to break it free. The cheaper black softer steel hex sockets would have rounded for sure. Suggest if you are going to work with hex plugs that are in tight, get the Snapon ones. |
One moans about the cost of tools until you hit a job like this when the quality of the bit makes the difference between job done and a major Charlie Foxtrot.
Well done, Steve…and tip of the hat to Strap-on.
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SGKent
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2025 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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update - the steel plugs and the long stainless are the ones that the loctite washed away on. The shorter stainless ones did not leak and were in really tight, it took a breaker bar to break them free *. Aluminum plugs in everything now, have one more behind the motor mount to do. Many of the steel ones had nothing left on the threads. I suspect that these are treated plugs so that the oil seeps into the pores, and even though they were cleaned, it prevented the loctite from curing properly. Not sure on that but the loctite external to the threads turned to powder really easy, sort of was like clay. The ones that stuck the loctite was more like an elastic sheet.
* Snapon makes really high quality hex sockets. They worked exceptionally well and did not round even though one of the 1/4 plugs took probably 60 -70 ft lbs to break it free. The cheaper black softer steel hex sockets would have rounded for sure. Suggest if you are going to work with hex plugs that are in tight, get the Snapon ones.
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SGKent
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2025 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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the ones on the fan and cooler side
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SGKent
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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Dodged a bullet. The gallery plug between #3 and #4 cylinder is not showing signs of leaking.
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Globedog12
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2025 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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I’ve got my fingers crossed for you!
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SGKent
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2025 8:54 am Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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put yamabond over plugs between case and plug. These should not leak. Flywheel back on.
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SGKent
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2025 4:11 pm Post subject: Updated: first 3 done - oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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first three 3/8" ones behind the flywheel are done.
Used compressed air to blow out the oil galleries
pulled one plug at a time
Mic'd it and chose the aluminum ones because they were as large as the McMaster-Carr steel and brass ones. Case is aluminum so the heat coefficient should be the same.
Used new NPT tap with a bit of grease in the flutes and the air coming out the oil gallery to be sure no chips made it into gallery. Just tapped a little past tight
Blew out the gallery using an air gun with a long nozzle to get even more air clearing the openings
On the center plug there is a oil passage to the cam bearings. I measured its depth
Cleaned the internal case threads using Berryman's B12 and the compressed air coming out.
Blew out with air gun starting well deep past the tapped area first
Inspected threads
Primed with Loctite primer
Used Loctite 567. Screwed the plug about 2/3 in then out. put some more on, did this two or three times until all the internal threads showed some on it.
Then went on to next one the same. The plugs now sit about 1/8" deeper and the one just barely encroaches on the cam bearing passage but maybe just a thread leaving 99% of it open.
Cleaned up the old fluorescein dye in case I even have to do this again. One case bolt had a little in the washer, it could have been slung there but I will yamabond the washers, bolt head and nut in case oil is coming out there too. The main seal has no dye on it other than the area that was touching the flywheel
Tightened each plug finger tight and then one to 1-1/2 turns more. Checked with torque wrench set to 23, it clicked each time so it is over 23 ft lbs.
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SGKent
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2025 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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I welcome a pipe fitter, and your laughter but I will tell you that if this happens to you, you will be talking to yourself and the dog or cat, or goldfish, whatever you have while alone in the garage.  What Ray explained. The actual depth the plug can contact is rather shallow. If I go deeper then oversized or welding is the next step. I am already concerned about that on a couple 1/4 ones that are slightly at or below flush and leaking. I can't get to them until the tin and shroud is off.
The real question is how does someone know when they have tightened a plug the correct amount? Mind you that this is not my first rodeo, and this case was assembled the first time in 2011 and it did not leak. I think I used 567 that time, and I am pretty sure that is what I used in 2022 on this engine that did leak. I am guessing based on the notes I made from 2011 that the plugs were tightened by feel, the tightness would have been rated about snug plus.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2025 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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| Globedog12 wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Globedog12 wrote: |
Perhaps the sealant on the inner threads has been washed away and only the last few threads towards the outer edge are making the seal? On larger diameter threads (not automotive) I will apply sealant on both the male and female threads. Might be worth a try to apply on the female threads and use a rag and a small dowel to push it into the recess of the deeper female threads. I guess the downside is leaving a few small lumps of sealant that could wind up in the case.
I like your determination! |
^^^^This....and I mentioned part of this possible problem a little while back.
If one is using tapered pipe plugs....unless you are careful when tapping, grinding the tap and tapping more...to eventually have the tap ground to the same inner and outer diameter as the plugs (and equally bad if you go too far)...you can have the inner threads have too much gap and too much air so the anaerobic curing thread sealants can remain uncured and get washed away.
Ray |
the plugs were shiny - meaning that the case threads wiped the steel threads clean of finish and burnished them, for lack of a better word. I'll take a close look tomorrow once everything is cleaned up. |
If that’s the case then I would think the case threads are too shallow not allowing the proper depth of the plug to get screwed in. Too much interference too soon. I’m just a pipe fitter but as I understand it you need 2 things. Proper interference of threads and proper insertion depth. I’m laughing about this whole conversation but glad I have a place to geek out about this stuff. Thanks guys! |
Kind of beat me to it. If he is using tapered plugs....the oil galley ports are very shallow. Its not like tapping into a long pipe nipple. You only have maybe 5-6 threads deep to play with depending on whict gallery port you are tapping.
So,....you measure the best you can how deep you want the plug to go in. Keeping in mind, how much is allow to stick out (not much room behind the flywheel). I grind the plug to length first.
Then I measure the very outermost thread of the plug and the very inner most thread of the plug. I then grind and measure the tap to have those two dimensions only and then be careful how deep I tap so that the outer most largest diameter does not go in farther than 1/2 thread below flush.
Its tedious and slow but it works. Not every plug you find or buy will fit right without grinfing off too much on one side or the other.
The threads of the bore and the threads of the plug need to fit each out.
In certain ways, straight plugs are simpler but you cannot tap all the way through. You need a stop line somewhere to get the plug tight.
Ray |
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Globedog12
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2025 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Globedog12 wrote: |
Perhaps the sealant on the inner threads has been washed away and only the last few threads towards the outer edge are making the seal? On larger diameter threads (not automotive) I will apply sealant on both the male and female threads. Might be worth a try to apply on the female threads and use a rag and a small dowel to push it into the recess of the deeper female threads. I guess the downside is leaving a few small lumps of sealant that could wind up in the case.
I like your determination! |
^^^^This....and I mentioned part of this possible problem a little while back.
If one is using tapered pipe plugs....unless you are careful when tapping, grinding the tap and tapping more...to eventually have the tap ground to the same inner and outer diameter as the plugs (and equally bad if you go too far)...you can have the inner threads have too much gap and too much air so the anaerobic curing thread sealants can remain uncured and get washed away.
Ray |
the plugs were shiny - meaning that the case threads wiped the steel threads clean of finish and burnished them, for lack of a better word. I'll take a close look tomorrow once everything is cleaned up. |
If that’s the case then I would think the case threads are too shallow not allowing the proper depth of the plug to get screwed in. Too much interference too soon. I’m just a pipe fitter but as I understand it you need 2 things. Proper interference of threads and proper insertion depth. I’m laughing about this whole conversation but glad I have a place to geek out about this stuff. Thanks guys!
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SGKent
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2025 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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I am going out into the garage shortly to work on this project. This issue along with my HLA-B27 gene are my nemesis. Below is my plan, does anyone differ with it?
1. Apply the air compressor air to the oil system thru the oil sender,
2. Put a small amount of grease into the flutes on a new NPT tap
3. Use a little WD-40 on the female threads. It is wax and mostly Stoddard solvent.
4. Chase the threads, removing as little material as possible
5. Inspect for remaining chips if any and remove
6. Clean female threads with Berrymans B12
7. Rinse threads with Acetone and a clean non-shredding rag
8. Swab the bore with a non-shedding rag
9. Mic the plugs, chosing the ones that have the best appearance and OD. Right now I am thinking either the aluminum or steel, brass if neither of those appear right. Clean the selected male threaded plugs same as above. Allow to dry.
10. Spray both male and female thread with the Loctite primer-activator and let dry
11. Use new tube of Loctite 567 on male threads, making sure it gets pushed down into thread root
12. Put a tiny line of the Loctite on the female thread for the first three or four threads to make sure anything wiped from plug as it turns can be replace.
13. Finger tighten plug, then turn it 1.5 - 2 turns further into case watching depth and measuring torque (in a how far off is it) to the specs in the engineering toolbox.
14. Tossing several of my favorite tools and a package of Twinkies into the cenote of the Mayan sun and galley plug deity, "Gallerio," as I turn to each quadrant of the compass and chant a Mayan poem. I have already prayed about this and I am hoping all of the above works.
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SGKent
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2025 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Globedog12 wrote: |
Perhaps the sealant on the inner threads has been washed away and only the last few threads towards the outer edge are making the seal? On larger diameter threads (not automotive) I will apply sealant on both the male and female threads. Might be worth a try to apply on the female threads and use a rag and a small dowel to push it into the recess of the deeper female threads. I guess the downside is leaving a few small lumps of sealant that could wind up in the case.
I like your determination! |
^^^^This....and I mentioned part of this possible problem a little while back.
If one is using tapered pipe plugs....unless you are careful when tapping, grinding the tap and tapping more...to eventually have the tap ground to the same inner and outer diameter as the plugs (and equally bad if you go too far)...you can have the inner threads have too much gap and too much air so the anaerobic curing thread sealants can remain uncured and get washed away.
Ray |
the plugs were shiny - meaning that the case threads wiped the steel threads clean of finish and burnished them, for lack of a better word. I'll take a close look tomorrow once everything is cleaned up.
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2025 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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| Globedog12 wrote: |
Perhaps the sealant on the inner threads has been washed away and only the last few threads towards the outer edge are making the seal? On larger diameter threads (not automotive) I will apply sealant on both the male and female threads. Might be worth a try to apply on the female threads and use a rag and a small dowel to push it into the recess of the deeper female threads. I guess the downside is leaving a few small lumps of sealant that could wind up in the case.
I like your determination! |
^^^^This....and I mentioned part of this possible problem a little while back.
If one is using tapered pipe plugs....unless you are careful when tapping, grinding the tap and tapping more...to eventually have the tap ground to the same inner and outer diameter as the plugs (and equally bad if you go too far)...you can have the inner threads have too much gap and too much air so the anaerobic curing thread sealants can remain uncured and get washed away.
Ray |
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Globedog12
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2025 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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Perhaps the sealant on the inner threads has been washed away and only the last few threads towards the outer edge are making the seal? On larger diameter threads (not automotive) I will apply sealant on both the male and female threads. Might be worth a try to apply on the female threads and use a rag and a small dowel to push it into the recess of the deeper female threads. I guess the downside is leaving a few small lumps of sealant that could wind up in the case.
I like your determination!
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SGKent
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2025 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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I hooked compressed air to the oil sender hose and gradually increased pressure . About 10 - 15 lbs at the sender oil went everywhere out the oil fill tube that had the top off. Cleaned up the mess. Drained the oil and tried again. This time got a good air flow thru the galleries etc.. I suspect that the pressure blew back thru the pump and out the oil pickup. Then I pulled the three flywheel plugs. The only place they have Loctite on the threads is right at the outside. The threads were clean. They were well covered when they went in. The ones that were weeping were easier to take out than the one that was dry, and it had more loctite on it than the others. There is enough pressure when the air is turned on that any cleaner, chips and debris will blow out when I chase the threads with the new taps or clean it with Berryman's / solvent / acetone and a small brush. The only bummer is the work that I will have to do to get to the other plugs on the fan side of the engine.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2025 9:30 am Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| the main oil seal is not leaking. Dye results show that. Yamabond was used to seal the case. The outside of the seal at the part lines where leaks have occurred in the past were coated in Yamabond, and the seal was installed as part of joining halves. A thin layer of Yamabond was applied to the outside edge of the seal. There is no leak at the main seal. Zip Nada. The photo showed this. The leak is coming from galley / gallery plugs. I use both words because articles and manufacturers use the two words interchangeably in their articles so both words can be used to find different articles. |
Yes....I got that the seal is not your issue but there has been enough "seal" conversation in this thread that I wanted to address that.
But.....I have also found the same two products to work the best on the gallery/galley plugs for the same reasons.
If you have big rough threads in the case ...and most tapping of case threads for gallery plugs are too rough unless you happened to find a TiN coated NPT tap.....and at best are tapping very straight with not twists or false starts.
In rough threads with big gaps you need a thick paste. In theory, one of the PTFE pipe dope tastes should work. But, if you use the hardening types....I find the adhesion to one surface or the other can be poor or they crack if you have a lot of expansion....and they leak.
If you use the non-hardening type like a classic pipe dope with PTFE....they eventually get mixed with oil or pushed out of the threads if the gap/tolerance is wide.
I have found a high durometer, oil resistant RTV (like a Permatex Ultra Gray) or a high adhesion RTV (like Yamabond or Motoseal) works the best.
As far as torque on the plug, torque like any other bolt going into aluminum. I do not use the torque for making sure the plug does not turn or back out. The torque is to crush the thread lands together tight ro make the best seal.
I keep the plugs in by slotting one edge and peeling the case material into the slot. Mechanical lock. Ray |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2025 9:07 am Post subject: Re: oil leak T4 anyone been here? |
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the main oil seal is not leaking. Dye results show that. Yamabond was used to seal the case. The outside of the seal at the part lines where leaks have occurred in the past were coated in Yamabond, and the seal was installed as part of joining halves. A thin layer of Yamabond was applied to the outside edge of the seal. There is no leak at the main seal. Zip Nada. The photo showed this. The leak is coming from galley / gallery plugs. I use both words because articles and manufacturers use the two words interchangeably in their articles so both words can be used to find different articles.
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