63 - 65 US spec turn signal emergency flasher tester

[BarryL]

Can you show the Bus-In-A-Box do the off-on coil light?

[jslmc1]

No need for a tach have the governor set at 4200rpm.

[Eric&Barb]

[70bus]

ok, so that's two buses with identical "bad" behavior when hazards on and brake stomped... so either we have our buses wired correctly, or we both hve the same screwup somewhere! :)

Do you have a tach? What does it do? My new aftermarket one does not like it and gets jumpy. Need to hook up an older type to test it as well.
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams

Raoul the 65 singlecab

Karl the 70 nine-seater

[jslmc1]

Do it Craig! Also tried the emergency flasher and brake thing on my Dec. 63. Probably not the best thing to try for an extended period…The flashers stopped flashing, the oil and gen lights lit up solid on, and the fuel gauge needle started dancing!!!

[70bus]

I was thinking of going to Woodburn with my box, dressed up in my VW overalls and a top hat... going up to bus owners

"Evnin' Guvnah - need yer flashes tested t'day?"
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams

Raoul the 65 singlecab

Karl the 70 nine-seater

[BulliBill]

Absolutely fasinating! You've got electrical skills Sir!

Now you'll have to go on a nationwide tour visiting all of us out here who have little piles of relays and have always wondered if they function properly or not. We don't have the heart to toss any of the "dubious" relays out! You could earn lodging, gas money beers and our eternal gratitude! LOL! A very cool invention!

Bill Bowman
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I'm looking for these license plate frames for my fleet:
Coeur D'Alene - Lake Shore Volkswagen
Mission VW - San Fernando
Thornton VW - Stockton

Thanks for any help!

[70bus]

Finally getting back to this. BarryL, the 'coil' light and 'brake switch' push button are an attempt to do just that; not sure if it an exact substitute, tho.

The Kind Mr. Dorr had requested a schematic, and here is my enfeebled attempt. You would guess I am either 4 or 104 years old based on this sketch...

Power comes from battery, and a switch either feeds 12v straight to circuit breaker and terminal block 'fuses,' or first sends to converter to 6v and then to circuit breakers.

All of the rest of the circuits are as depicted in '63 US w/ emergency flashers' schematics on thesamba. As per stock, the 'always hot fuse' part of terminal has a wire to the + terminal on t/s can, and to a selector switch, which allows the indicator bulb's "ground" terminal to be connected to 'hot' fuse, or to a 'ign on' power source depending on which wiring scheme tested. The 'hot' terminal on the indicator bulb goes to k on t/s can.

I didn't put grounds on this version to keep it somewhat legible, but will make one with them in case there is a backfeed somewhere important.

My main two questions: why, when using a non-K t/s relay, does it all work as advertised??? Yes, a 49a relay makes the indicator light flash opposite to t/s bulbs, but nothing ever gives me the main issue with these buses, which is the indicator light staying lit at wrong time. Nor do I get the 'bulbs light/don't flash' some people get. Second question is whether pushing a 'brake' switch and having it power a light is the same as that quirk of on-off-on w coil circuit. It should be, as pushing the brake is sending backfeed power to the coil, but maybe not.Not a deal breaker for the tester, but it would be nice to replicate all issues with these buses.

The Businabox is just a fun toy-cum-relay-tester if it can't mimic real-world issues to troubleshoot other buses. I was told today I obviously had too much time on my hands! True, but I was able to help them with a bus needing this circuit worked on, so not a total waste of time to learn all this.
_________________
Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams

Raoul the 65 singlecab

Karl the 70 nine-seater

[BarryL]

[BarryL]

[70bus]

Well, I call them "49a relays," to differentiate them from relays with a K (or P, or C). It is properly called whatever part number VW or Hella or Bosch or Webasto or SWF or... calls it.

I doubt anyone but me calls them 49a, but it is faster than saying 'Bosch 0 336 256 002 does not have a K terminal, but has 49a to indicator bulb.'

On the coil load - the tester has a 12v bulb to imitate the coil, so not loadless, but should I put something else on it?

I'm a little alarmed that the brakes/flashers/key off affects my gas gauge like if does; as I am having an OG M620 12v gauge restored, the last thing I want to do is fry it. It is NOT conected to the indicator bulb, as it would be if using the wiring which uses key-on circuit to power indicator bulb. The effect is sort of like testing a gas gauge for being "good:" touch a hot wire to the + sign and see if needle goes hard right. So somewhere there is 12v getting to the gauge when it should not be in that scenario. I contemplated putting a gas gauge in the tester; now I gotta dig my spare out and patch it in.

Also, Ryan at Orange Empire Speedo says not to test gas gauges like that!
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams

Raoul the 65 singlecab

Karl the 70 nine-seater

[BarryL]

[BarryL]

[70bus]

EDIT - with key off, flashers on, push brake: all lights continue as normal, but my gas needle and the electronic tach needle flail back and forth in time with flashers. Gas goes nearly full travel! Need to fix that gas gauge somehow

Key on - all lights go on and stay on EXCePT indicator arrow which stays off; gauge needles stay in place in usual ign positions; proper gas level, tach at zero..

This is an image you posted saying it is from your bus

I see this can in a lot of buses posted. It obviously works for you, with quirks like 'brake on/flashers on' speeds, vs my relay with a K that locks them all on in that scenario.

One of my goals w/ this tester was to identify issues and fixes (if needed) for using your relay vs. mine. Hard to do if the tster can't match the OG system and common issues!

Since your flashers/brake result is similar to the t/s and brake result, I wonder if they are related. My tester doesn't actually connect to a coil; a possible cause of your result?
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams

Raoul the 65 singlecab

Karl the 70 nine-seater

[BarryL]

[BarryL]

Key on or key off?

Key off: mine flashes twice as slow. Key on: mine flashes twice as fast; almost like it's shorting out.

[70bus]

A question - anyone with these buses, what happens when you have the flashers on, and you hit the brakes? On my truck, all the lights light up and stop flashing, like when you use the turn signals while flashers are on. This doesn’t happen on the tester; now I need to contemplate which is correct, if the tester is wired correctly, and is my truck!
_________________
Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams

Raoul the 65 singlecab

Karl the 70 nine-seater

[70bus]

Which is how it works on all the relays I’ve tested which have the proper K behavior; the 49a ones all do the green arrows opposite to other bulbs. The mystery is why yours works, since IIRC you have a 49a t/s relay. :)
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams

Raoul the 65 singlecab

Karl the 70 nine-seater

[BarryL]

On my '65 wired like your '63 Bus Owner diagram with the key off, and turn signal on, the green light is syncopated with outside lights.

With flasher on, the green light is syncopated with the outside lights and the red light is synchronized.

[70bus]

Yes, US buses must have hazards available at all times. That's one of the causes of t/s-emergency-indicator issues.

I do have an actual ignition switch I could use, but for the tester I just used a toggle, visible above t/s switch housing

An ignition switch basically ties 30 (always hot) to 15 (key hot) and in theory the toggle is doing the same, as it connects a pair of terminals to power when flipped. That power then goes to the indicator bulb. It is possible that there is some aspect of the circuit I'm overlooking, so happy to hear thoughts, especially why I am not getting the common fault of the indicator light on at the wrong times when using "49a" relays.

If I can find the key that goes in my spare ign switch I may patch it in to test whether the toggle really functions the same. Hell, I''ve considered putting my spare light switch in there to make sure it has no effect!

In my darkest hours I have thought of connecting the tester to my car, to see if the motor does the brake switch on/off/on thing with it.
_________________
Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams

Raoul the 65 singlecab

Karl the 70 nine-seater