building a 1914, fuel injected daily driver. need info

[jimmyhoffa]

Yeah I used neither an extra injector nor IAC valve. All cold starts were handled with about 25-30 degrees of idle timing and extra fuel mapped to the output of the CLT sensor Mario sells. It would have been better with an IAC but the simplicity of my EFI setup was insane. It was such a clean install after I loomed the wires to all the components.
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[Max Welton]

No need for a separate injector for cold start. Megasquirt has some built-in parameters that deal with cold start and enrichment that are all indexed to coolant temp (CLT). Mario has a nifty device that bolts to the head to provide CLT for this purpose.

https://thedubshop.com/modified-coolant-temp-sensor-package/

Max
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1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836

[andk5591]

[raygreenwood]

[Max Welton]

[Brian_e]

Vw had electrical, mechanical, and automotive engineers, with millions of dollars to spend, and unlimited resources.

Now days it’s just someone with a summit racing catalog thinking they can slap a v8 system onto a vw and all the physics, thermodynamics, and heat transfer issues issues will just disappear.

VW also put the fuel injectors at the ends of the manifold where they should be.

Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok

Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com

Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts

[oprn]

Funny thing to me is reading these comments about the difficulty in getting EFI to run properly on a stock 1600 under different altitudes and temperatures etc. and VW did it flawlessly 56 years ago. Makes me wonder about the serious lag in development in the aftermarket industry...
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Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[modok]

That's a great idea.
Mario should be able to give you some realistic expectations about what this or that system can and can't do, at a professional level.
And set you up with something that fits your goals.

instead of all us goons who just tried everything for free.
And tell you the same thing anyway
You'll believe it a lot better when you are paying for the advice

[Max Welton]

[jimmyhoffa]

I don't know how meaningful this data point is, but that perfectly serviceable engine tuned like a Japanese economy car is under my garage stairs, and I have $400 worth of EMPI carbs stacked on the engine in my car now.

Without going EFI with ITBs, you do hit a wall around 100hp with most of the popular intake parts, and really if you go center fueling and don't have port injection, you sorta lose the other benefit. In summary, I don't think I'd go Sniper or similar unless it was also gonna have a fat turbo. So in keeping with Samba tradition, I'd suggest you get a 82mm crank, trade for B pistons, and do the sniper but get a turbo exhaust and boost it. (lol perfect Segway from him being curious about EFI options on a mild 69x94.)
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[Alstrup]

The converted Mex system is an entirely different ball game as the injectors are placed just above the cylinder heads, as they should be. for milder engines it can be a nice set up. There is till the same performance limit. Not quite sure where it is, but somewhere around 100 hp. However, there is still the price tag. With the converted Mex system there is also a real option of improving fuel efficiency. i have never messed much with them, but I knnow people who has, and they have been able to reach very impressive overall figures. but, once again, it is not something you do in an evenings time.

Now, IMHO the 34 Solex, - and its modified sisters (37 & 39) are vastly underrated and misunderstood carbs. I will agree that on a 1600 displacement they - can - be a bit of a challenge to get to run right if you are not strict with your build. But on say a 1776 or a 1914, coupled with a better center section, the picture changes complestely. If you maintain a decent manifoild heat as well as proper pre heat to the aircleaner (Not necessary if you live in Ca or Texas or similar) and and make a couple of small changes to the carburettor it can run flawless, also during cold start and warm up.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

[boxer74]

So if a sniper setup costs $2000 and I could get the same performance out of a $500 carb setup, but keep my clothes smelling fresh and keep my wife happy (provided I don't tell her about the $1500 cost for her happiness), then I'm good with that!
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74 Super
84 Westy

[Brian_e]

Yes, it is all 100% preference.

For my road trip vehicle, I want it to be dead reliable, super easy to trouble shoot, and even easier to fix on the side of the road if need be. I carried spare parts for every piece of the EFI system, but trouble shooting it is much more difficult, and far more involved.

My wife was getting good at adjusting fuel and timing maps from the passenger seat while I told her numbers. She was over it by the time we got to our destination.

I also did the 2nd MAP sensor, but the software wouldn't altitude adjust no matter what I tried. If I had someone who was a MSquirt expert go through the whole thing and rework it all, it would most likely be way better, but I didn't have access to anyone like that.

By the end of our trip, I had different fuel maps saved for different altitudes. I would stop and load the next one to keep the bus running good. With carbs, you barely notice any altitude change. They just work plenty good all the time.

I think most people get it tuned and think its amazing at their local altitude, but never leave that altitude. I did the same thing. I had it running awesome here in town. Near perfect tune. As soon as I left town and started changing elevations is when the tuning issues started.

It is neat to be able to adjust so many parameters so easily, and be able to see the results right away.

Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok

Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com

Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts

[boxer74]

My Vanagon has Mansispeed's EFI kit, which uses Microsquirt and includes a second MAP sensor for barometric pressure compensation. It was a well thought out system that has required none of the tinkering that Brian_E outlined above. That said, it was designed for the stock Vanagon 2.1 MV engine which is what I'm basically using.

Dub Shop builds EFI kits for Type 1 engines and as we all know no Type 1 engine is the same unless bone stock. Therefore Mario can't give you a nicely dialed in VE table. Therefore it requires some user effort afterwards.

Kinda cool to play with VE Analyze Live in Tuner Studio though.

I think EFI vs. carb is just a personal choice. People that sink all their money into EFI aren't always doing it for performance gains. Some are techie types (myself included) that like making adjustments with the laptop and seeing the engine respond different rather than dialing in a carburetor.

The number times my wife complained about the gas smell all over my clothes and in the garage while I was dialing in some dual webers years ago had me glad I've gone down the EFI path. Hard to put a price on keeping your better half happy.

The Red-E sniper kit appeals to me and others because it has been loaded with the necessary software adjustments to work out of the box for most people.

If you're not after high performance, but like high tech upgrades to your ACVW, I think it's a nice upgrade. It's not cheap, but I don't regret buying it. It requires WAY less effort to get running nicely than a kit from the Dub Shop. If you're willing to put in the effort, the results from a port injection setup from the Dub Shop are likely much better.

But having said all that, I'm enjoying driving my bug this spring with the sniper. On to the next project...
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74 Super
84 Westy

[Brian_e]

The main difference between the stock VW EFI setup and Jim's Honda like setup Vs. the sniper stuff is the injectors in the end castings, and this is 100% what makes the difference in drive-ability.

Not sure if you have ever tried to drive a VW with a stock center mount in cold or even cool weather with little or no manifold heat, or a heat riser, but they suck. They run super rich, they make crappy power, and they tend to flood themselves after shutdown. Google latent heat of vaporization.

Same exact problems occur with ANY system that adds fuel 1.5 feet away at the entrance rather than right at the end of the manifold. With the center mount EFI, the computer will just keep running in circles trying to add more fuel to keep it alive, but then pull fuel out because its running so rich.

If you want it to drive like a civic, copy exactly what Jim did. He knows his stuff. I would warn you, it will take lots of tinkering on your end after the install to get it dialed in. Then when you leave town and change elevation, you will need to get out the laptop, and start tinkering again. After a few 1000 miles and lots of elevation change testing you will hopefully have it pretty close to dialed, but don't be thinking it will drive like a civic on the first trip around the block.

I am not trying to be a total downer, but after my VERY expensive EFI install, and a 3500 mile cross country road trip with it, I would have rather had a pair of dirty, half worn out kadron's on my 2332 for that trip. I too thought it would be all unicorns, fluffy clouds, perfect drive-ability, and fantastic MPG, but it was none of those things for me. It was more like get the laptop out at every stop, read data logs, make changes, hope it works..... Maybe I had too high of hopes.

I ditched all of it, and went back to China 44IDF's. Now I am back to worry free driving, super simple trouble shooting, better throttle response, and equal or better MPG. All for about $3500 less.

Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok

Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com

Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts

[andk5591]

[jimmyhoffa]

[esde]

I've built an MS2 unit and love it. If I wanted a turn key unit for daily driving, I'd get a Dubshop basic system with a micro squirt controller.
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[andk5591]

[BFB]