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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 33144
Location: Hot Arizona
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 Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| aquifer wrote: |
1. You mentioned 'raising it a tad so it can be rotated'. Does that mean it is possible to lift up the drive gear just enough to rotate it and set it back down, without running the risk of the spacer shims getting knocked down into the engine? |
You must raise it the distance of the slanted gears, turn it, then set it back down.
| aquifer wrote: |
Or is the risk pretty high that I will raise it too high and knock them into the engine while trying to turn it? |
I don't know, I've only done that once, on my friend's VW (he bought the tool and left it with me).
I posted this somewhere before, but when I took my factory 1971 engine apart after it had sat a decade or so, I could not remove the distributor drive gear with that tool; I had to hammer it out with a block of wood after I split the case. I had the case machined and re-used that distributor drive gear.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4503
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| Orientation does not matter with a SVDA. |
This is technically true but here are two pics that show what happens when the drive gear down in the case is not installed correctly and you are trying to compensate by rotating the distributor body. The vacuum canister gets rotated into awkward positions.
In the first pic, imagine you wanted to rotate the distributor CCW to adjust timing but can't because the vacuum canister is hitting the fuel pump?
In the later pic, you want to rotate the distributor CW and the canister is hitting the intake.
Without changing the drive gear down in the case you can rotate the distributor body in 90-deg increments and reinstall the plug wires into the cap to maintain the correct firing order. Orient the rotor to the #1 plug wire position BEFORE making the change so you know where #1 plug wire must be installed over the rotor tip. You will need to re-adjust the timing when all is done.
Also, the notch on the rim of the distributor body which represents the position of the #1 plug wire will no longer be correct. You may need to add a new mark on the body or just number the cap or the plug wires. |
The first picture proves my point. You need a couple more degrees CCW? 88 degrees CW accomplishes this. |
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aquifer 
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 360
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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All good info, thanks everyone! I’m going to leave it alone.
_________________
Parts needed:
Front & rear NOS or used OEM door panels for a '67 in the original Gazelle color (dark tan/light brown).
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 7507
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| bsairhead wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| bsairhead wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| bsairhead wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| Orientation does not matter with a SVDA. |
Or any other distributor that does not have a retarded lobe. |
Yes, you can not do this with the short aluminum ones. I can't think of an SVDA or DVDA that has a retard lobe. |
That's what I thought you would say. |
You can't do it with fuel injected engines either. This is for the distributors that havF.I. car.e the fuel injected points. |
That makes sense. Never had an aircooled F.I. car |
I had a long discussion with Ray in the Type 3 forum to understand why.
_________________
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Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
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bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4503
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| bsairhead wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| bsairhead wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| Orientation does not matter with a SVDA. |
Or any other distributor that does not have a retarded lobe. |
Yes, you can not do this with the short aluminum ones. I can't think of an SVDA or DVDA that has a retard lobe. |
That's what I thought you would say. |
You can't do it with fuel injected engines either. This is for the distributors that havF.I. car.e the fuel injected points. |
That makes sense. Never had an aircooled F.I. car |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 7507
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| bsairhead wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| bsairhead wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| Orientation does not matter with a SVDA. |
Or any other distributor that does not have a retarded lobe. |
Yes, you can not do this with the short aluminum ones. I can't think of an SVDA or DVDA that has a retard lobe. |
That's what I thought you would say. |
You can't do it with fuel injected engines either. This is for the distributors that have the fuel injected points.
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4503
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| bsairhead wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| Orientation does not matter with a SVDA. |
Or any other distributor that does not have a retarded lobe. |
Yes, you can not do this with the short aluminum ones. I can't think of an SVDA or DVDA that has a retard lobe. |
That's what I thought you would say. |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 7507
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| bsairhead wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| Orientation does not matter with a SVDA. |
Or any other distributor that does not have a retarded lobe. |
Yes, you can not do this with the short aluminum ones. I can't think of an SVDA or DVDA that has a retard lobe.
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4503
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| Orientation does not matter with a SVDA. |
Or any other distributor that does not have a retarded lobe. |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 7507
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| Orientation does not matter with a SVDA. |
This is technically true but here are two pics that show what happens when the drive gear down in the case is not installed correctly and you are trying to compensate by rotating the distributor body. The vacuum canister gets rotated into awkward positions.
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When that occurs what you do is rotate the distributor body with vacuum canister and then you move the wires to compensate.
It doesn't matter where you put the distributor body. What matters is where you put #1 wire with respect to TDC. The result will be that the wire orientation will be off but it's easier for some to move wires than move the drive gear.
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16617
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| Orientation does not matter with a SVDA. |
This is technically true but here are two pics that show what happens when the drive gear down in the case is not installed correctly and you are trying to compensate by rotating the distributor body. The vacuum canister gets rotated into awkward positions.
In the first pic, imagine you wanted to rotate the distributor CCW to adjust timing but can't because the vacuum canister is hitting the fuel pump?
In the later pic, you want to rotate the distributor CW and the canister is hitting the intake.
Without changing the drive gear down in the case you can rotate the distributor body in 90-deg increments and reinstall the plug wires into the cap to maintain the correct firing order. Orient the rotor to the #1 plug wire position BEFORE making the change so you know where #1 plug wire must be installed over the rotor tip. You will need to re-adjust the timing when all is done.
Also, the notch on the rim of the distributor body which represents the position of the #1 plug wire will no longer be correct. You may need to add a new mark on the body or just number the cap or the plug wires.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 7507
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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Orientation does not matter with a SVDA.
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 35965
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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If it runs now, forget about the orientation issue until the ending is out and apart for another reason, and address it then.
IIABDFI.
_________________
Current Fleet:
- '71 Fastback
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Retired:
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- '65 Beetle (x2)
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aquifer
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 360
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| aquifer wrote: |
My question though, is how hard and/or risky it is to re-orient the drive gear in the engine so that it is correct?
Is it worth trying to set the orientation right? Any advice is appreciated! |
I did this on a friend's engine over 4 decades ago; but I had the correct tool.
Trying to jam in a wooden dowel and using that to raise the distributor drive gear a tad so it can be rotated can be hit or miss....
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I see that the correct tool is relatively cheap online so I don't mind buying one. So that leaves me a couple of questions:
1. You mentioned 'raising it a tad so it can be rotated'. Does that mean it is possible to lift up the drive gear just enough to rotate it and set it back down, without running the risk of the spacer shims getting knocked down into the engine? Or is the risk pretty high that I will raise it too high and knock them into the engine while trying to turn it?
2. If I do knock the spacers down inside the engine, is it possible to retrieve them without splitting the engine case?
Just trying to assess the risk/reward scenario here. The only reason I care is my OCD, because it runs perfectly fine being wrong. 
Thanks for the input!
_________________
Parts needed:
Front & rear NOS or used OEM door panels for a '67 in the original Gazelle color (dark tan/light brown).
Also looking for used white headliner pieces, both perforated and non-perforated. |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 33144
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| aquifer wrote: |
My question though, is how hard and/or risky it is to re-orient the drive gear in the engine so that it is correct?
Is it worth trying to set the orientation right? Any advice is appreciated! |
I did this on a friend's engine over 4 decades ago; but I had the correct tool.
Trying to jam in a wooden dowel and using that to raise the distributor drive gear a tad so it can be rotated can be hit or miss....
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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baldessariclan
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 2084
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| aquifer wrote: |
| Is it worth trying to set the orientation right? Any advice is appreciated! |
You can pull the distributor drive gear out and reorient it correctly if you like (I’ve done so myself in the past). However, there are a few potential “gotcha’s” in this process:
1) It can sometimes be hard to get the gear up out of and/or back down into the hole, due to built-up varnish or similar deposits — it’s normally a pretty close fit between the hole and gear.
2) It is also easy to damage the teeth on the mating brass gear (located on crankshaft), if you’re not careful when removing or replacing the steel drive gear.
3) And finally, you have to be careful not to dislodge or shift the spacing washers that sit down at the bottom of the drive gear.
Don’t let all this scare you too much — it’s certainly not a completely impossible task. But also recommend you search out and review the Bentley service manual instructions, along with some of the threads on this forum discussing this process, before you attempt it. Lots of good advice and pointers to follow in some of those.
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1971 Standard Beetle — fairly stock / driver
baldessariclan -- often in error, never in doubt... |
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aquifer
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2021
Posts: 360
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2025 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| bsairhead wrote: |
| SW or NE neither. About 20 minutes past the hour looking down if the front of the car was at 12 oclock. So SE. |
OP here, circling back to this. From everything I’ve read, I don’t think it matters that my drive gear is not oriented correctly, as long as I have it firing #1 at TDC, which I now do, and it runs fine.
My question though, is how hard and/or risky it is to re-orient the drive gear in the engine so that it is correct?
I’m ok with running it this way, but these kinds of things bother me, so I’d like to correct it if I can - if for no other reason than after I kick the bucket the next owner will not have this issue. However, I don’t want to risk dropping spacers or anything else in the engine or causing myself a lot of grief by doing something wrong out of ignorance.
Is it worth trying to set the orientation right? Any advice is appreciated!
_________________
Parts needed:
Front & rear NOS or used OEM door panels for a '67 in the original Gazelle color (dark tan/light brown).
Also looking for used white headliner pieces, both perforated and non-perforated. |
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bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4503
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2025 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| SW or NE neither. About 20 minutes past the hour looking down if the front of the car was at 12 oclock. So SE. |
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baldessariclan
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 2084
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2025 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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| aquifer wrote: |
| One other quesiton for those in the know: is it more “normal” now, with my #1 plug wire on the northeast side of the distributor, or is it equally likely that a rotor would point southwest to find the #1 plug wire? I understand that it doesn’t really matter, and that I should have determined TDC before I removed the distributor, but for future reference when I reassemble the first distributor, is it more normal to set it so it finds #1 at a northeast location? I will install the dog accordingly. I guess what I’m asking, was the first distributor’s dog correct pointing SW, or the second one pointing NE? |
As others have noted, the alignment of the distributor’s rotor to its body (i.e. as determined by the the underlying distributor drive gear’s alignment) isn’t absolutely critical, so long as it’s pointing at the spark plug wire going to cylinder #1 when you’re at TDC.
However, just FYI here’s what the alignment of the distributor drive gear is supposed to be like, as per the Bentley service manual:
If you’re got your drive gear aligned close to that orientation, along with a stock distributor for your engine, then your rotor will usually correctly line up w/ the corresponding mark on the distributor’s body when you’re at TDC.
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baldessariclan -- often in error, never in doubt... |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 7507
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2025 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Engine won’t start - no obvious reason |
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Using TDC is the best way to set up your distributor. You should not make any assumptions about the drive gearing being installed the correct way.
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
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Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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