making sense of my starter (with picture) 84 westy

[Rorke]

Thank you for all this great information guys.
I am two weeks without my daily driver because of this starter situation and my work schedule.
I don’t know that I can afford to wait for more parts to be delivered so I think I’m going to be replacing these spades in due time.

[greggarthurevans]

I will buy one of those, thanks. I learned a lot this week. Thank all of you.
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Holy crap I want to get this van on the road.

[DanHoug]

[1988M5]

You can drill a larger hole and use micro nuts, bolts and baby fender washers for serious contact.

BK
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1991 tin top GL
2002 Winnebago Vista. VW VR6 24V Eurovan front clip powered class C 21' RV.
Some BMWs.

[greggarthurevans]

The connectors came in the mail with believable Supco packaging and did have the imprints on the metal, but they were magnetic. It fit on the spade a little loose, so I flattened it some with a needle nose and had to work very hard to jam it on. The van is consistently starting, so I moved the other cars out of my driveway and took a victory lap around the neighborhood.

Still looking for a better connector.
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Holy crap I want to get this van on the road.

[greggarthurevans]

I was planning on going to an appliance place (listed by Supco) to buy a connector, but from what you are saying, it will be plated and rust. Also, it seems that any connector available is fake. Where else might I look for a reputable connector?
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Holy crap I want to get this van on the road.

[DanHoug]

[crazyvwvanman]

Bought 2 wire sizes, T1111 and T1112, both fly to the round magnet in the photo.
Cut one apart, silver color through and through, no copper detected.

Mark

[DanHoug]

one more caveat.... the terminals I've shown are NOT the T1112 high temp terminals. the genuine, Supco T1112 High Temp connector COULD be made of plated steel as is typical of other high temp appliance connectors. HOWEVER, it is not the appropriate material for the starter connection, and is incorrectly cited in the Amazon ad as being made of copper as per Mark's magnet test.

the Supco T1001 is a 0.25" 10-12 ga, tin plated brass connector and would be appropriate for the starter. I feel the TE phosphor bronze connector I detailed earlier is a better choice but not a deal breaker vs the Supco.

https://supco.com/web/supco_live/products/T1001.html
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[DanHoug]

aaaand.... one more. have a bulk pack of 100 Gardner Bender disconnects. G-B rebrands all sorts of things, probably don't manufacturer much, and it can be cheap stuff at times. this pack is many many years old. dunno if they are still packaging SUPCO.

again, 100% non-magnetic

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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[DanHoug]

going down the rabbit hole....

looked thru my box of connectors. here's one marked "K.S", exact per the SUPCO link photo. it is 100% non-magnetic with a neodymium magnet.

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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[crazyvwvanman]

I ordered 2 sizes of the Amazon linked SUPCO that came today.
Highly attracted to a magnet, so probably not much if any copper.
I cut one into pieces, couldn't detect any yellow color.
Package looks like real SUPCO and markings on the ends look right too.

Mark

[DanHoug]

I took a look around the web searching for a high quality quick connect for the starter solenoid terminal. ideal would be made of beryllium copper but I couldn't find any 10-12ga 0.25" quick connects. next best is phosphor bronze... while slightly less conductive than brass, it is stronger and retains its springiness much better. to that end, the below female 1/4" 10-12ga quick connect fits the bill. it is an "open barrel" crimp which requires its own crimper but creates a better bond with the wire.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/62428-3/1153781
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[greggarthurevans]

Some of the reviews for the Amazon connector say thin or flimsy." I guess I will go to an appliance store that carries Supco.
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Holy crap I want to get this van on the road.

[DanHoug]

[uberaudi]

While the 'wart' may only be a temporary fix for wiring in poor shape, it also has the advantage of removing more or less all of the load from the ignition switch...IMO that's the best perk about it! That, and full voltage to the starter is always nice.
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'84 Adventurewagen 1Z TDI, '08 Audi Avant Quattro 6spd BHW TDI

[greggarthurevans]

Thanks, Sodo:

I bought the connectors you linked and a cheap hydraulic crimper. I plan to cut back as far on the wire so it still can reach, clean everything up, and connect. Then I'll start testing.
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Holy crap I want to get this van on the road.

[dobryan]

As someone already stated. No advice other than to find another shop to work on your bus. The mechanic that did your starter is an idiot to not notice and fix that wiring and connector. Should have done that before spending your money on a starter.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2010 Subaru EJ25 (Vanaru) and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[Sodo]

Do you have a voltmeter?

Theres a test called "the Voltage drop test" that will tell you if you need (or don't need) to add a relay.
The difficult part of the "voltage drop test" is finding a repeatable "load" which allows you to measure a repeatable "Vdrop".

But that is if you are "real interested" in electricity.
Electricity has piqued my interest as of late..... seeing how ubiquitous the starting problems have become.
Starting problems on 40 year old Vanagons are making a lot of money for tow-truck drivers.
-----> and sadly reducing the "satisfaction" of vanagon ownership.

I am on a mission to "methodically solve Vanagon starting problems".
If possible.
I don't tolerate them.
I'm on starter problems like a fly on sh*t.
As you will see

===== heres the TL:DR =============

The problem with cutting off that spade connector is ----> the quality of the new connectors available.
You kinda need a "heavy-duty" spade for this task, equal in quality to the VW unit.
Definitely avoid those light-duty blue crimp-connectors from the FLAPS.
And the fancy ones on Amazon with heat-shrink ----->fabulous!
But they're usually discount connectors made of thin metal.
They loosen when attached to such a heavy wire like the start-signal wire.
If you use one of those, consider zip-tying the start-wire so it cannot move,
thus wiggling the connector and wearing it out over the years.

Don't use a nickel-plated "steel" connector on the copper starter spade.
Nickel is not compatible with the copper spade on your starter.
This spade connector is copper: https://a.co/d/iVow1T6
This example is just "Amazon" - I don't know where else to look for heavy duty (or High-temp) spade connector terminals.
If anyone knows where to get them, please post.
This starter-spade-connection is a significant element that MAY cause relay installation.

It does not need insulation because it's only HOT when holding the start on your key-switch. But it wouldn't hurt to add a heat-shrink covering + strain-relief of course.

IMHO the quality of this connector that you add, is more important than including a relay into the system. If you add a relay, your possibility of faults (over the following years) has actually increased, because you have significantly increased the number of outdoors connections.
Your relay connections must be assembled even "more reliably" for the system to be reliable over the years.

Basically a relay can be a blessing if you have a fault in your system.
It will work fabulously immediately, and for the short-term (the next few years?).
But if you can find and remove the fault in your system, the relay becomes "a wart to be removed".
Understood that the fault is not easy to find and remove.

^^This^^ from a guy who LIKES relays.
I consider a hard start relay to be an "elegant step backwards".
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[greggarthurevans]

Thanks again for all your help. I cut back the red/black wire.

I think the pic of the connector accurately shows the party going on in there.

Does the wire at the fresh cut look ok? I'm worried about the black color.

Yes, I will add a relay.
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Holy crap I want to get this van on the road.