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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 2160
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 Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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After much meditation and contemplation...
The only time I'll be seen in Birkenstocks and tie- dye t- shirt...
I have arrived at the configuration of our new mega horsepower VW motor.
Kilo horsepower, actually. Mega is a lot more.
I gave the Indycar and F1 rule books a quick read. Hey! F1 promises "active aerodynamics" this year. Silly F1 hoidy- toidies! Our Supermodifieds have had active aerodynamics for decades. Nyah, nyah.
Watch the wings. Those are patches of snow on the infield.
Link
Here's what I came up with:
How about a 3 liter flathead four cylinder boxer. Four valves per cylinder with two 40mm intakes per cylinder on top and two 35.5mm below. That won't suck, will it? Oh, wait.
Flatheads will reduce the engine width by at least 50mm. That means in time honored flathead tradition we can add a whole bunch to the stroke. Pushrods can be shorter, too.
Two spark plugs per cylinder 'cuz a 4" bore is a long way for a flame to travel.
I should sketch it out on CAD for those who lack imagination. Just picture a four cylinder four valve per cylinder Briggs & Stratton pancake.
Flathead.
Coming soon to a Tractor Supply near you.
Ferdinand Porsche would approve. Maybe.
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Dan_Lockwood
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2023
Posts: 448
Location: Clare MI
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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Where did you say it wasn't an overhead cam???
| Goingslow wrote: |
Maybe a cheap way to get a solid bottom.
Just get a junk engine and take rotating assembly and put into new case.
99.5mm pistons are better than 94mm too. |
When you reference using the bottom end of a Subaru and add VW top end, that pretty much says you didn't know that the Subaru was an overhead cam and the cam in a VW is in the case below the crank.
But you may also have been suggesting that we should just put the Subaru lower innards into a VW case and start from scratch???
I agree with most here, just bolt in a Subaru and forget about the AC VW altogether.
Dan |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20834
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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| vamram wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
Problem with "social media", like "facebook" and the likes most people can only read what on their current screen or what is provided by the "app"... What they may be looking for might be a few strokes below but they can not see that because they can only see what's current not what is historically stored a few minutes/hours/days/weeks ago.. So they have to generate new message to fill their current screen...
And now AI has come along and there is so much misinformation and generated graphics that are wrong it is going to get worse because the people that have so much faith in what the see on the internet are going to be totally clueless to reality....
Its going to be a case of "suffer the fools" as life goes on... |
This. Speaking of FB, I read a post on FB a few years back by Chris Valone stating his opinion that thesamba forums needed to be modernized to be more like FB. For that life of me, this makes no sense. The Samba as it is may not be glitzy but it's a great searchable library that, compared to FB, is super easy to find solutions for most ACVW issues. I'm not a fan of AI, but I wonder if integrating it into the search function would make finding answers to already-asked questions easier... |
It's already integrated into a tractor forum I visit on facebook (don't boo me here ) and so far is been somewhat of a joke as it produces links to non relevant resources and for the most cases most of the users stress "make it go away".... Actually if someone knows how to properly use "search" so far its better than AI...
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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U&I
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2024
Posts: 75
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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| Reading some of the replies on this thread is exactly why most of the older guys (it's weird to say that about myself) invest in and build their own physical reference library at home. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27707
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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| Goingslow wrote: |
As said, from what I know.
If I'm wrong then I'm happy to be corrected.
So are anyone running a subaru bottom end?
Split heads and a new cam could be used I guess. What bore spacing does the EJ use?
Maybe a cheap way to get a solid bottom.
Just get a junk engine and take rotating assembly and put into new case.
99.5mm pistons are better than 94mm too.
After that you could make all hp you want if they are good for 1.4k hp.
And way cheaper than buying a t1 scat billet crank that's weaker anyway. |
oh jeez kid
The bore spacing is the same, 112.5mm, but you don't swap any parts, you just use a suubaru engine, as it overcomes all the limitations of a vw engine.
None of it is cheap
And I really don't think a subaru engine could take a thousand horesepower for more than 10 seconds.
I know you guys got a short attention span buts lets try to make the engine last oh, I don't know, maybe at least 6 hours |
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vamram 
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 8056
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
Problem with "social media", like "facebook" and the likes most people can only read what on their current screen or what is provided by the "app"... What they may be looking for might be a few strokes below but they can not see that because they can only see what's current not what is historically stored a few minutes/hours/days/weeks ago.. So they have to generate new message to fill their current screen...
And now AI has come along and there is so much misinformation and generated graphics that are wrong it is going to get worse because the people that have so much faith in what the see on the internet are going to be totally clueless to reality....
Its going to be a case of "suffer the fools" as life goes on... |
This. Speaking of FB, I read a post on FB a few years back by Chris Valone stating his opinion that thesamba forums needed to be modernized to be more like FB. For that life of me, this makes no sense. The Samba as it is may not be glitzy but it's a great searchable library that, compared to FB, is super easy to find solutions for most ACVW issues. I'm not a fan of AI, but I wonder if integrating it into the search function would make finding answers to already-asked questions easier...
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20834
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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Problem with "social media", like "facebook" and the likes most people can only read what on their current screen or what is provided by the "app"... What they may be looking for might be a few strokes below but they can not see that because they can only see what's current not what is historically stored a few minutes/hours/days/weeks ago.. So they have to generate new message to fill their current screen...
And now AI has come along and there is so much misinformation and generated graphics that are wrong it is going to get worse because the people that have so much faith in what the see on the internet are going to be totally clueless to reality....
Its going to be a case of "suffer the fools" as life goes on...
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Schepp
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2020
Posts: 532
Location: NorCal
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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It happens all the time on every forum. Some rando comes along who knows jack and pokes the hornets nest. Then steps back to watch us eat ourselves.
Kind of funny how a guy who's tag is "going slow" dives in with this post.
No location or anything about what his application is. |
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 2160
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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| ORANGECRUSHer wrote: |
| I can't beleive with a post count of 0 and half-assed questions you guys didn't send this guy to pack sand and do his obligatory research. |
When I was a kid our school library had a subscription to Hot Rod Magazine. I didn't realize I should have talked my parents into moving out to San Bernardino or Riverside right then. That's where it was happening.
I read every last one of those magazines. Later, I found the complete bound archive of Hot Rod all the way back to the 1950s in the County library.
The old County library is a ruin now along with the poor farm next door. Seems people rely on information they get on their cell phones these days. Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom and so forth.
I reckon consumption of information makes you smarter while consumption of mis- information is the other way around. Regardless, the internet makes everyone grumpy. No joy on the internet.
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Goingslow
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2025
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 4:18 am Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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| modok wrote: |
maybe's he's a goofball, but, even a goofball deserves one chance, if not two
Why is he a goof?....He didn't notice know a subaru ej25 is over head cam |
Where did I say it wasn't ohc? |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27707
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2025 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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maybe's he's a goofball, but, even a goofball deserves one chance, if not two
Why is he a goof?....He didn't notice know a subaru ej25 is over head cam |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79697
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2025 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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| ORANGECRUSHer wrote: |
I can't beleive with a post count of 0 and half-assed questions you guys didn't send this guy to pack sand and do his obligatory research. All those questions are easily found ten times over if he had just not been lazy and asked a bunch of vague, broadranging, situation dependant questions. I'm very disappointed.  
PS. it's my time of the week... sorry  |
People like to hear themselves talk.
[ignore on]
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי |
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ORANGECRUSHer
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 3547
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2025 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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I can't beleive with a post count of 0 and half-assed questions you guys didn't send this guy to pack sand and do his obligatory research. All those questions are easily found ten times over if he had just not been lazy and asked a bunch of vague, broadranging, situation dependant questions. I'm very disappointed.
PS. it's my time of the week... sorry
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Brian H.
OrangeCrushERBerrien Warrior-2.4L Quad4-2x3 arms-1.5Fox coilovers-094-930CVs
LAZY MARY1970 Baja 2110cc-82mm CB forged crank-AA pistons/cylinders-Grant rings-1.1 vw rockers-CB serpkit-CB chromoly PRs-CB maxiflow filter pump-wix51515 filter-Dual 44IDF-cut/turned front beam-AEM wideband-Auber CHT-Donaldson Dual PowerCore filters-custom AL air boxes |
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 2160
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2025 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| If your not wanting to dive in and learn about what can make a aircooled vw really live, and mix and match subaru/vwaircooled into one engine, then you should really swap a complete engine, and not try to mix and match. |
An Oxyboxer is a proper juxtaposition of Subaru and VW. No Subaru parts in it. Something like 30 years ago I gazed at my brother's Vanagon engine. It was obvious the Vanagon engine grew out of basic Type 1 architecture. One might expect it to be an outgrowth of Type 4 but...
...well, anyway you can mill the water jackets off a Vanagon and end up with an Oxyboxer. Not for the faint of heart, though.
You either need to become a machinist or write a lot of checks to a machinist. That's where Pauter, Autocraft and the like come in.
| Wreck wrote: |
| all the information you have given is a type 1 chassis . what are you going to want all this power for and for how long, seconds or hours ,hundreds of hours etc ? |
We all get snookered by Top Fuel. Those guys rebuild between rounds. How hard can it be? More to the point, how expensive? I don't know but I been told $50k per run, win or lose. That's the nature of nitromethane. The early nitro racers round out PDQ you either purge the nitro vapor from your engine or it's gonna blow up the moment you start it. That evolved to replacing a shopping cart full of expensive parts each and every run.
Of course the OP's question is, "How big can we build it?" That answer is pretty easy. Around 1965 or 1966 a Volkswagen was intended to be a 1200 or a 1300, either 64mm stroke by 77mm bore or woo- hoo, the Big Boy supposedly 50 horsepower 1300, same 77mm bore only stretched out to a honkin' 69mm stroke.
Various J.C. Whitney catalogs trumpeted the benefits of big bore pistons and cylinders. VW Corporate quickly added their own "big bore" pistons and cylinders to give us the 1500 and 1600. With a rebel yell we cried,
"More, more, more!
But there's only so much room inside an engine that was designed to be 69mm stroke with a 77mm bore. Turns out you need a little clearance in a bunch of places at the top of the case to clear a counterweighted stroker crank. There's only so much room before the crank and rods whack into the cam.
Bear in mind the stock case was designed for a 77mm bore.
Wouldn't it be handy to have an aftermarket case with a raised roof, a dropped cam centerline and enough material to move the cylinder studs out to accommodate really huge cylinders? Oh, wait. Trick cases have been available for decades. They solve the obvious problems while creating several more. Like...
How do you fit an engine wider than stock into the stock hole without cutting vintage sheet metal?
If it won't fit the engine compartment, how are you going to fit it with a shroud necessary to keep it cool?
If you're not an engineer or a machinist, where you gonna get all the trick parts needed to make it fit and function? See, that's the real Catch 22. If you have the tools and skills to build it you build it. Then you sell a bunch of them to your buddies. That (hopefully) generates enough cash to keep the whole enterprise rolling.
| Dusty1 wrote: |
If you want to understand power look at marine diesels, big Volvo Pentas for example. Or... 6-71 Detroits. You might find those in a ferry or you might find one in a truck. |
I mentioned marine diesels in hopes of enlightening the OP to how burly parts need to be to handle big power.
The 1400hp Subaru guys built it to notch a record. It's not how the bear dances...
The bear will dance like a mofo for a few seconds before dying of a heart attack, multiple aneurisms and a stroke.
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1320
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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| all the information you have given is a type 1 chassis . what are you going to want all this power for and for how long, seconds or hours ,hundreds of hours etc ? |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3649
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2025 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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When looking at a aircooled vw type 1, everything looks weak. One nut to hold the flywheel on, air cooled, tiny little head studs, and comes with a flexible magnesium block that is not even one piece. Its like a cruel joke of a engine to try to make power with and stay together.
For all those reasons, its alot more rewarding to be successful do just that.
If your not wanting to dive in and learn about what can make a aircooled vw really live, and mix and match subaru/vwaircooled into one engine, then you should really swap a complete engine, and not try to mix and match.
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3847
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2025 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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Could go with the TF-1 case
84mm crank and 4” pistons
2.7L |
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 2160
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2025 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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| Goingslow wrote: |
As said, from what I know.
If I'm wrong then I'm happy to be corrected.
So are anyone running a subaru bottom end?
Split heads and a new cam could be used I guess. What bore spacing does the EJ use?
Maybe a cheap way to get a solid bottom.
Just get a junk engine and take rotating assembly and put into new case.
99.5mm pistons are better than 94mm too.
After that you could make all hp you want if they are good for 1.4k hp.
And way cheaper than buying a t1 scat billet crank that's weaker anyway. |
Do you know the difference between linear and logarithmic?
I ask because there's no such thing as cheap horsepower. Every so often someone finds something that no one else noticed resulting in big power for little money. But for the most part the quest for power and speed is logarithmic. Not linear. The expense I mean. First thing you learn is twice as expensive is nowhere near twice as fast. Twice as expensive again may be a little faster. As you evolve you begin to understand how much power you need. Evolve further, you understand how much power you can afford.
If you want to understand power look at marine diesels, big Volvo Pentas for example. Or... 6-71 Detroits. You might find those in a ferry or you might find one in a truck.
Let's talk about the venerable 6-71.
It's called a 6-71 because it has six cylinders, 71 cubic inches each. That's more than 1 liter per cylinder, hey, 426 cubic inches and it's supercharged. You might think it makes crazy horsepower like a supercharged Chrysler Hemi. A stock Hemi is 426 cubes. A nice street hemi could use a blower borrowed off an old Detroit. That's where the old timers got their blowers. The big diesel must make crazy power, no?
"No" is the right answer. A 6-71 GMC diesel makes... drum roll, please... it makes 165 horsepower or 225 horsepower for the high output version.
GMC designed their diesels as a modular concept. The made 2-71, 4-71, 6-71, 8-71 and then twelve, sixteen or twenty- four cylinder versions.
Point is these engines are huge while the power they produce is "unimpressive".
How is it that "165hp" motor will push a fifteen ton (gross) city bus?
Can you imagine a 165hp VW motor in a GMC city bus?
There is another axis that bears scrutiny, expected service life. Those old GMC diesels trudged along for hundreds of thousands of miles.
The real obvious part: Diesel Bus motors are quite large. Freakin' huge, really.
If we were to chase after more diesel horsepower we would use the usual hot rod tricks. Feed it more fuel. Blow on it harder. Spin it faster.
And...
We would quickly arrive at a point where the power exceeds the structural limits of the design. It's gonna blow chunks, hot oily chunks.
Every motor will blow chunks when pushed hard enough.
How many times can you pay for your really quite impressive (on paper) motor to turn itself into hot oily chunks?
https://www.kennedyeng.com/engine-adapters
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Goingslow
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2025
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2025 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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As said, from what I know.
If I'm wrong then I'm happy to be corrected.
So are anyone running a subaru bottom end?
Split heads and a new cam could be used I guess. What bore spacing does the EJ use?
Maybe a cheap way to get a solid bottom.
Just get a junk engine and take rotating assembly and put into new case.
99.5mm pistons are better than 94mm too.
After that you could make all hp you want if they are good for 1.4k hp.
And way cheaper than buying a t1 scat billet crank that's weaker anyway. |
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 2160
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2025 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Limitations of vw engine? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Goingslow wrote: |
| From what I know, the subaru is not very strong. Tiny crank webs amongst other things. |
Sure... 1400 WHP is crap |
It's way easier to make 200hp with a 2 liter 16 valve Subaru than it is with a 2 liter 2 valve per cylinder VW.
Stick your 2 liter Subaru in a Bus. Use it to tow your VW to the track.
The Subaru numbers you need to know:
175hp from a 2.0 or a 2.2 normally aspirated, conservatively tuned.
275 turbocharged horsepower from a WRX.
375 turbocharged horsepower from an STi.
600 turbocharged horsepower from a tuned WRX or a tuned STi.
Any more than that is just bullshit and / or bragging rights. You better have a fat wallet to keep up with the greasy trail of broken parts. It's like any other time you let your reach exceed your grasp.
Here's the cheat to the bonus question: Don't worry about the crankshafts. 2.5 Subarus eat heads like they're party favors. My (now several) tuner buddies keep the lights on and and pay the rent by replacing 2.5 heads.
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