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PicklePickle
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2008
Posts: 933
Location: Gonzales, LA
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 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Wheel lug nuts keep coming loose |
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Just wondering if anyone else has had a problem with the lug nuts on the front and/or back wheels coming loose even after tightening them over and over?
This really worrying me. Again on a trip today (maybe 20 miles total), I heard a thump thump thump and a little shake. I immediately had my wife stop the bus in traffic to check all of the wheels....and &$*#& AGAIN!!! Except this time it's another one!!
This has happened three times now and it happens on various wheels. Each time it happened, I rechecked ALL wheels and retorqued them all just in case. I have tried tightening these wheels using every good practice known to man. Star pattern, etc. Even pressure until tight. I use a heavy breaker bar instead of the short little deal that gives almost no leverage. I don't overtighten and they are not stripped. The threads match perfectly, the wheels themselves are in A+ condition as well as the rotors, etc.
I have had over 50 vehicles in my life and have NEVER had a problem like this. It makes me worried to even BE in this bus while moving much less have my wife driving it! Any further suggestions?
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"Aircooled VWs are like roaches in that if you let one in, they'll soon be nesting all around you in great numbers."
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1970 Yellow Beetle aka "Melbourne"
Last edited by PicklePickle on Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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What torque value are you tightening them to?
I am thinking they go to about 94 foot pounds (but I should check the bentley). |
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PicklePickle
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Joined: February 24, 2008
Posts: 933
Location: Gonzales, LA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
What torque value are you tightening them to?
I am thinking they go to about 94 foot pounds (but I should check the bentley). |
I have not specifically measured the torque, but I plan on doing that today. Needless to say, it is very tight when tightened--but not overtight. I definitely know the difference as I have dealt with broken off studs and stripped threads as a result of (other people's) over tightening before. It's just strange that I have never seen such a problem keeping lug nuts tight. Last time I tightened them all, I even lifted the bus at each wheel a little with the hydraulic jack, so that the recess that the lug nut sits in would surely seat well.
The only explaination I can think of is that when going through the restoration process, I cleaned up all of the bolts and nuts very well-which I thought would be a good thing--instead of leaving them all rusty.
It still doesn't make sense to me though, because this is something I have done on other vehicles several times in the past and it has never led to this problem. It is very discouraging to have my wife so scared to drive the bus after all of the work I put into it over the past 8 months or so just because of something so simple--yet dangerous.
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"Aircooled VWs are like roaches in that if you let one in, they'll soon be nesting all around you in great numbers."
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1970 Yellow Beetle aka "Melbourne" |
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Buscuss
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Joined: January 09, 2007
Posts: 282
Location: in the waiting room, Central Coast
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: Wheel lug nuts keep coming loose |
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Right. 94 ft. lbs.
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Karl
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Joined: January 29, 2001
Posts: 6170
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Have you had the wheels powder coated? |
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TheTominator
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Joined: February 20, 2007
Posts: 898
Location: HICKORY, NC. USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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I've never heard of your problem before now. If it were me, I would replace all the studs and nuts. They are not expensive. My guess is that they have been stretched slightly over the years. That could make them slightly thinner I think. If that is the case, it would explain them coming loose. Or it could just be that between the rust and your cleaning, they are thinner.
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"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" Albert Einstein - 1901
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An Oldsmobile for crying out loud.
Last edited by TheTominator on Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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twinfalls
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Joined: November 21, 2003
Posts: 2133
Location: France
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Wheels lug nuts should not go loose.
I never had such an issue about any of my cars.
I never used a torque wrench, there,
I do use a cross wrench ( two hands tool ) that give me power to unscrew nuts bolted by apes, and it gives a good feel to screw them not too tight.
There is something wrong and potentially dangerous at your wheels.
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Karl
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Joined: January 29, 2001
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Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Karl, I actually called the NTSB about powdercoatng wheels and them coming loose and they say they had never heard of it. I had heard of incidental occurances, so I checked on it.
They did say that wheels on new cars are all powdercoated so you would thing that they would all come off also.
I say check the torque on your wheels 100 miles after you first mount them and then check them along with your air pressure about once a month.
I have never had an issue with them. |
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norcalmike
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Joined: May 14, 2005
Posts: 4784
Location: Marina, CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| did you piss off any kids in your neighborhood? |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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I bought a car from a guy a long time ago that had been driven with lug nuts just finger tightened and ended up replacing all 4 rims and the studs.
They were all wallered out adn the studs were sort of buggered up. After that it worked OK. |
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rumplestilskin
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Joined: January 13, 2007
Posts: 963
Location: los banos,CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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i have seen kids try to use acorn nuts on mag wheels and they had the same problem . the correct type of nut has a sleeve and a flat washer . the sleeve fills the id in the mag wheel to keep it from moving on quick stop and the washer holds it tight to the hub.
do u have aftermarket rims? and are they aluminium? if the answer is yes discontinue use of vehicle until u can get the correct studs installed and proper nuts for your wheel
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PicklePickle
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Joined: February 24, 2008
Posts: 933
Location: Gonzales, LA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| What torque value are you tightening them to? |
Randy, I went out and checked every nut with a torque wrench. Some were probably a little higher than 94 and both most are about that. A few were around 70. They are ALL about 95 now.
| Karl wrote: |
| Have you had the wheels powder coated? |
No. They are original wheels that were brushed down to metal and repainted with wheel paint though.
| TheTominator wrote: |
| My guess is that they have been stretched slightly over the years. That could make them slightly thinner I think. If that is the case, it would explain them coming loose. Or it could just be that between the rust and your cleaning, they are thinner. |
This is possible and I would not rule it out, but highly unlikely. The bolts barely had any rust on them and looked about as good as the bolts that I would find on any vehicle--even newer ones. All I did was basically dust them real gently with a fine wire brush to known more dust and dirt out than rust. Sorry if I indicated that they were in bad condition--they are not.
| twinfalls wrote: |
| There is something wrong and potentially dangerous at your wheels. |
Yes. I know.
| norcalvw wrote: |
| did you piss off any kids in your neighborhood? |
There are no kids in my neighborhood or anywhere near. We don't even lock the vehicles or remove things from them at night. (and yes, it is SO nice living where there are no kids or even young adults).
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
I bought a car from a guy a long time ago that had been driven with lug nuts just finger tightened and ended up replacing all 4 rims and the studs.
They were all wallered out adn the studs were sort of buggered up. After that it worked OK. |
Studs are in excellent shape.
| rumplestilskin wrote: |
| do u have aftermarket rims? and are they aluminium? if the answer is yes discontinue use of vehicle until u can get the correct studs installed and proper nuts for your wheel |
Original wheels. Original steel all in good condition.
Okay, now that we have all of that out of the way, I think Randy is on track with simply rechecking them after driving a while. I guess what throws me is that I simply never had a problem with loose lug nuts ever before. Well, let me rephrase that: I have never had a problem with loose lug nuts that were properly tightened before.
I have one final thought though. Because I have been trying to make sense of this all day in my head, I remembered that several months back--when I originally dismounted the wheels--I had to soaked the wheel bolts/nuts in PB blaster and tried various oils when trying to break them loose originally. They were dried in place from sitting in a barn for several years. The bolts and nuts still have a "damp" appearance to them even to this day although they have been cleaned with a rag. Perhaps they just need to be cleaned with something that will eradicate any trace of any previously applied oils as it is possible that they are just lubricated enough that it allows them to slip loose in normal driving.
I will be keeping a close eye on this with every drive and will post back on how things progress, but as I see it either they simply were not tight enough or the traces of lubrication are allowing them to slip loose. I just hope that some valuable and life saving understanding will come of this.
_________________
"Aircooled VWs are like roaches in that if you let one in, they'll soon be nesting all around you in great numbers."
-------------------------------------------------
1970 Yellow Beetle aka "Melbourne" |
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TheTominator
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Joined: February 20, 2007
Posts: 898
Location: HICKORY, NC. USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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That lube on them probably is a factor. Rubbing alcohol, gasoline, brake or carb cleaner to remove. Torq them and recheck as per Randy's suggestion.
_________________
"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" Albert Einstein - 1901
If I can't curse, I can't fix it.
71 Bus
78 HD FXS Lowrider 1200cc
An Oldsmobile for crying out loud. |
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Air_Cooled_Nut
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Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 3069
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Make sure you have metal against metal, that is, remove any paint that is in the nut landing on the rim. I don't care what type of paint is used, remove it.
The oil on the threads is not the problem.
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Did I mention that I'm an original Darksider?
'72 VW Squareback, 2007cc, GB 5-speed, rag top; '76 VW Riviera Penthouse Sundowner 2.0L; 2015 Audi S5 Cabby w/Stage II APR; '06 Ducati Sport Classic 1000; '14 Ducati Diavel Strada
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PicklePickle
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Joined: February 24, 2008
Posts: 933
Location: Gonzales, LA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Air_Cooled_Nut wrote: |
Make sure you have metal against metal, that is, remove any paint that is in the nut landing on the rim. I don't care what type of paint is used, remove it.
The oil on the threads is not the problem. |
Will do. Thanks for the advice.
_________________
"Aircooled VWs are like roaches in that if you let one in, they'll soon be nesting all around you in great numbers."
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1970 Yellow Beetle aka "Melbourne" |
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Air_Cooled_Nut
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Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 3069
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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I was just looking through my books on fasteners and one thing came to mind is to make sure your rim mounts FLAT to the wheel hub. Check the back side of the rim and make sure it's smoooooooth. Check that the face of the wheel is smoooooooth as well. If the surfaces are not butted against each other then the wheel will wobble, even unperceptively, but it will produce enough vibration to load/unload the fasteners and cause them to loosen.
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Toby http://www.aircoolednut.com/
Did I mention that I'm an original Darksider?
'72 VW Squareback, 2007cc, GB 5-speed, rag top; '76 VW Riviera Penthouse Sundowner 2.0L; 2015 Audi S5 Cabby w/Stage II APR; '06 Ducati Sport Classic 1000; '14 Ducati Diavel Strada
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Bursch
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Joined: October 28, 2006
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Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
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From a previous post. This would also apply if you painted the wheels with regular paint
| Bursch wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
If you're powdercoating the wheels, don't forget to clean the heavy buildup of coating from the area where the lug bolts seat on the wheel. This has been discussed many times before (do a search and you'll see) and some say it is totally unnecessary. I call it cheap insurance.
Although I voted for silver, you have a nice bus and I bet it will look great with fresh wheels. Congrats. |
Yes, good advice. I took an old lug nut and made it into a grinder. Used the prepped lug nut in a drill to remove all the coating form the area where they seat. If you do not do this, the lug nuts will loosen up whilst driving!
Right lug nut to be used to clean the threads on the studs
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1975 Kombi
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Joined: August 12, 2007
Posts: 2459
Location: Acton, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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You might want to try different nuts from a different bus just to see if they come loose. Maybe at sometime the torch was put to them and they have lost some of there heat treatment. A friend of mine has a VW Golf and the CV bolts keep coming loose. He has tried everything. So I am not sure if they are affected by vibration or they are physically changed.
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VDubTech
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Posts: 9156
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Something nobody has asked yet...did you use anti seize on the lugs and/or studs? If you did, get that shit offa there. Never use anti sieze on wheel fasteners. PB B'Laster shouldn't make a difference, I've had to use it plenty of times when bringing new Buses home and never had a problem in well over 2 dozen Buses with the lugs coming loose. |
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