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Koeppler
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2011
Posts: 487
Location: Aging gracefully
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 Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:44 am Post subject: Cockeyed wheels after new tie rod ends. Where to start? |
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I replaced all my tie rod ends and took careful measurements so that I could get the rods back to the original length once the new ends were in. I did that but for some reason I now have issues! Now the steering wheel is way off-center and when the left wheel is straight the right wheel has tons of toe-out.
When I measured out the tie rods with the new ends I only went by the length of the whole rod. Was I supposed to also make sure that each tie rod end was the same number of turns out as the ones I removed? I'm going to re-do the toe in today and I have the specs and a method for doing it all but I need to know if I screwed something up that's going to make it impossible for me to get the toe right! |
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texson
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2009
Posts: 180
Location: Nacogdoches, Tx
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| I know it can be done. Turn the shaft that the tie rod ends are screwed into to adjust to in-n-out. Take a measure from center of tire to the center of tire on both front and back. Adjust tierods until 1/8 inch is shorter in the front than the back of the tires. It will take some time but it can be done. |
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don't_bug_me
Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2013
Posts: 852
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Something must have moved or been bumped or a measurement mis-calculation somewhere, dis-connect both sides and start fresh now, center your steering wheel, strap it down somehow so it doesn't move but make sure it's in the actuall center from full left and full right. Screw in both tie rod ends equally untill they drop in both sides, find a point on the tire to meaure distance from the front of the tire(right tire to left) and the same point from the rear of the tire, adjust till approx toe in 1/16 to 1/8, then you can safely drive for to get an alignment.
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70 Street Baja http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=566113
"Necessity is the mother of invention" |
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Koeppler
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2011
Posts: 487
Location: Aging gracefully
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Okay, thanks guys. I was sloppy about getting the tie rod ends into the rod equally and also about steering wheel position when installing. I'll just redo it all and do the toe from there. |
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don't_bug_me
Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2013
Posts: 852
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Ha ha ha, no biggy, I'm sure you'll get it now...the ole carpenters rule, measure twice, cut once apllies here as well. 
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70 Street Baja http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=566113
"Necessity is the mother of invention" |
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johnnypan
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 7431
Location: sackamenna
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Build a toe gauge...
stole this pic,it doesn't have to be this fancy.. |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 33460
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:44 am Post subject: |
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You've got 2 things to deal with here.
1. You want to get the toe-in correct (about 1/8 inch for the home mechanic who doesn't measure this in degrees).
2. You want to get the steering wheel straight (and re-positioning the steering wheel on the splines is NOT the correct way to do this).
Years ago, I made a jig out of a long piece of wood (think a GIANT C-clamp with short arms) with a thumbscrew threaded into one of the arms. I use this to set my own toe-in.
Loosen your tie rod clamps on both sides (all four clamps, or 3 clamps and one lock-nut). Rotate one or both tie-rods until the toe in is 1/8 inch. Check your steering wheel position, if you're lucky it will be straight ahead; if not, you must rotate the two tie rods the same amount in opposite directions, that will keep the toe about the same, and move the steering wheel shaft position. Once steering wheel is straight ahead, and toe in is re-checked at 1/8 inch, tighten the clamps.
Yes, it's trial and error. Yes, it's easier if a helper is sitting in the front seat to tell you how it is (and also to hold one side of the giant C-clamp in place as you measure).
I've done this check on all my vehicles after replacing tie rod ends and similar front end parts.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Tim Donahoe
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Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11812
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:20 am Post subject: |
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This is one of those items I leave to an alignment shop here in town. The guy is an artist. Forty-nine bucks later, all is perfect. Sp, for those who get stuck, or simply don't want to fool with it, call around. There are still some shops that know how to align vintage VW's.
Tim |
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Koeppler
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2011
Posts: 487
Location: Aging gracefully
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Cusser wrote: |
You've got 2 things to deal with here.
1. You want to get the toe-in correct (about 1/8 inch for the home mechanic who doesn't measure this in degrees).
2. You want to get the steering wheel straight (and re-positioning the steering wheel on the splines is NOT the correct way to do this).
Years ago, I made a jig out of a long piece of wood (think a GIANT C-clamp with short arms) with a thumbscrew threaded into one of the arms. I use this to set my own toe-in.
Loosen your tie rod clamps on both sides (all four clamps, or 3 clamps and one lock-nut). Rotate one or both tie-rods until the toe in is 1/8 inch. Check your steering wheel position, if you're lucky it will be straight ahead; if not, you must rotate the two tie rods the same amount in opposite directions, that will keep the toe about the same, and move the steering wheel shaft position. Once steering wheel is straight ahead, and toe in is re-checked at 1/8 inch, tighten the clamps.
Yes, it's trial and error. Yes, it's easier if a helper is sitting in the front seat to tell you how it is (and also to hold one side of the giant C-clamp in place as you measure).
I've done this check on all my vehicles after replacing tie rod ends and similar front end parts. |
This sounds do-able. I don't have the stuff laying around to make a jig but chalk and a tape measure and a few other things seem like they'll get me to the 1/8". So I don't have to re-screw in the tie rod ends to make sure both ends on the rod are threaded in/out the same amount before doing this? |
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Koeppler
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Joined: April 21, 2011
Posts: 487
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| Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Okay, so I answered my own question:
1) I centered the steering wheel, set up my materials, took my measurements and adjusted the rods so I had 1/8" toe in on both sides.
2) Looked at the steering wheel and it was just about perfectly upside-down!
3) Tried to center the steering wheel by turning tie rods in opposite directions but it didn't work for some reason. Screwed up my original adjustments so I had to remeasure and re-set toe.
4) Steering wheel still upside down but car tracks straight.
Looks like I'll be removing the rods today, centering the wheel, lengthening the ends so they drop into the knuckle and drop arm smoothly, and will re-align from there. |
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don't_bug_me
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Joined: July 29, 2013
Posts: 852
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Koeppler wrote: |
Looks like I'll be removing the rods today, centering the wheel, lengthening the ends so they drop into the knuckle and drop arm smoothly, and will re-align from there. |
Think that's what I said 8 post ago...  trick is, lock your steering wheel with something and check on it during your adjustments.
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Koeppler
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Joined: April 21, 2011
Posts: 487
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| Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| don't_bug_me wrote: |
| Koeppler wrote: |
Looks like I'll be removing the rods today, centering the wheel, lengthening the ends so they drop into the knuckle and drop arm smoothly, and will re-align from there. |
Think that's what I said 8 post ago... trick is, lock your steering wheel with something and check on it during your adjustments. |
Yep....you were right! I took what everyone else was telling me as a "shortcut" but what they meant was I should to what they were saying after I did what you said. 
I had my wife hold the steering wheel while I turned the rods and as soon as she let go, it moved to where it "wanted" to go. |
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don't_bug_me
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Joined: July 29, 2013
Posts: 852
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Koeppler wrote: |
I had my wife hold the steering wheel while I turned the rods and as soon as she let go, it moved to where it "wanted" to go. |
That's the other part of my post, you need to make sure the steering wheel is in the center of the gearboxes travel, same amount of left turns to right turns to center, that's when the steering wheel is centered, you must have had it turned or the steering wheel itself is not splined correctly, double check this.
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don't_bug_me
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Koeppler
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Joined: April 21, 2011
Posts: 487
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| don't_bug_me wrote: |
Shortcuts always take longer except to grandma's house  |
Yeah, speaking of shortcuts, I'm doing all this because the alignment shop I brought it to screwed up. First time, it was just as bad as when I brought it in. Second time, it was good but it only lasted a few weeks. Third time, I'm doing it. Turns out both the inner tie rod ends were shot. They were OG VW with the logo and part #'s. The boots were torn and they wiggled like crazy. An alignment shop that doesn't notice when tie rod ends are shot is a crappy or a lazy shop.
I re-did the lengths of the rods and ends until they dropped in without a hassle which wasn't so hard. The worst part was getting the steering damper into the eyelet. Drove to a flat parking lot and the tires were squealing a bit. Busted out some bricks and a tape measure. Centered the steering wheel and straightened the wheels. Then got to measuring. I kept measuring, adjusting, and centering the steering wheel until I got 1/8" toe in on both tires, the steering wheel is about as centered as I could get it, and now the car tracks straight on local roads and the highway. I'm feeling pretty good about it. |
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don't_bug_me
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Joined: July 29, 2013
Posts: 852
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Good job!!, find a reputable shop to re-check alignment, you want to make sure your front tires are inline with the rears also, so it doesn't dog track down the road, and they should fine tune your alignment. Any alignment shop should have inspected all the components first, I'd give that shop a review in the Samba review section so anyone in your area would be well advised to avoid them. Also, if after everything is completely aligned, if your steering wheel isn't perfectly center when going down the road, you should be able to pull it and move it a spline if necessary, mine doesn't have a keyed spline, and can be turned as much as I want, I assume most or all are like this.
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Kiptere
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Joined: February 13, 2013
Posts: 419
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Just get it driveable and take it to the alignment shop.
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Dwayne1m
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Joined: December 31, 2011
Posts: 3543
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Kiptere wrote: |
| Just get it driveable and take it to the alignment shop. |
X2 |
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