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rhmanatee
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 Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: CV Joint Dished Washer--Why does Bentley say to discard? |
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My apologies if this has been covered before, but a search did not turn up an answer to this.
The bus is a 1977 Bay.
Section 6-3.2 of the Bentley advises that the dished washer between the protective cap and the CV joint was discontinued in 1975, and if there is one, it should be removed and discarded. In the installation section, it reiterates "Do not install a dished washer."
My CV joints are disassembled and do include the dished washer. It appears that the joint would have excessive travel (~1/8") on the splines without it, plus they worked fine with it. Why does Bentley say to get rid of it?
Here are pictures of the washer and assembly with and without it:
Thanks for any insight or advice anyone can provide! |
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Tcash
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:50 am Post subject: Drive Shaft Concave Washer |
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=159948&highlight=joint+washer
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=549953&highlight=joint+washer
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Leaving out that spring washer is bad. It has a habit of doing several things that are REALLY bad.
(1) depending on road conditions and how much flex and sway your rear trailing arms have, it allows enough movement that the circlip/snap ring is constantly getting hammered on. It eventually starts chafing its groove, wears the groove and then snaps out.
(2) The splines on these axles must fit tight or they cannot transfer load without risking damage. The in and out sliding motion wears the crap out of the splines. Loose spline fits are weak.
(3) Most especially on 091 type transmissions, the combined in and out movement when using no spring washers at either end of the shaft leaves very little space between the inside cap (#27 joint flange cap), that covers the differential output side shaft splines and circlip. Once the snap ring pops off...it chews that cap up. That releases gear oil into the CV joint which not far off really messes up the grease. That's not really that bad in the short run...but since it liquefies with the grease...a lot of the grease leaks out. The gear oil also attacks the rubber of the boot.
I have no idea why VW would actually put out a bulletin saying to leave these off. On certain joints they can be a b*tch to install (type 4 especially)....but they are necessary to prevent wear to the splines.
As the splines get wear in them and get loose.....each time you let out the clutch...it slams the faces of the splines wearing them more. Eventually either the joint or the shaft ...whichever is softer...is worthless.
The other problem this leads to on an 091 transmission....the slipping of the joint back and forth in the shaft.....is constant hammering on what is called the "joint flange spacer ring". part #113 517 281 (#25) (I believe the part # is the same in the 091 and 004 transmission and may be the same in type 1. I use the parts interchangeably from 091 to 004 four speed)......which is the spacer between the CV joint flange and the face of the differential housing. As that gets hammered...the CV hub that is snap ringed onto the splined differential stub axle starts slipping back and forth wearing it splines also......but worse...it constantly loads and unloads the differential side stubs in and out on the spider gears...wear the spiders...and wearing out and cupping ....the thrust washers between the diff housing and the output stubs. It is also the main cause of leakage of the seals in the aluminum adjuster rings on the side of the differential section of an 091.
Been there...done that..several times before I realized what was happening. Put the washers back on your joints. Ray |
| old DKP driver wrote: |
The Washer was deleted in late 75 on the type 2's
This was due to the new design with the thrust surface built into the joints from the NEW supplier (lobro).
The type 1's continued using the washer.
I had thought i had a pic in my gallery but, nope!
early joints still use the spring washer. and, it's easy to identify the late ones with the thrust surface since, it is only on one side of the joint.
Pic's in my gallery now. |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Also bear this in mind.....the dished washers usually come with a boot kit. The quality of the boot kits and parts in them has been all over the planet for the last 15 years...because they are built in a zillion counties by a zillion manufacturers.
That dished washer (actually called a bellville spring washer)...comes in a wide range of spring pressure, thickness and concave-ness to match those functions. I have found dished washers in some kits that would flat out NEVER fit and had to go buy one the correct thickness.
For example.....these washers can be bought from Mcmaster Carr (and most decent industrial hardware shops) with and inside diameter range from 1mm to 129mm andan outside diameter from 2.5mm to 250mm with a thickness range of .001" to 18.99mm.
You can get nearly any size you need rto make proper fit.
Its nice to know now why they discarded it. Having a thicker thrust surface of exact height would do that. Learn something everyday.
Also....having slop at the splines will NOT take the load off the balls. It slams the balls against the thin cage..and is one of the reasons (a) they can crack and (b) you get that nasty dent worn in them.
The strongest part of the entire joint are the balls and the main outer hub. They can stand a great deal of wear. The splines cannot stand any wear. Ray |
| Quote: |
Desertbusman Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:54 pm
75bus4/me wrote: Without the washers the CV had a significant amount of room to slide back and forth on the axels.
That's probably why VW wanted the heavy Belville washers removed. The CV joints can now move to seek and find their optimum center to center distance.
As the wheels move up and down the distance from the wheel stub axle to the trans output flange varies. Normally the side to side movement in the joint grooves takes care of that. Have you seen joints where the wear pattern from the balls in the grooves is not centered?
Originally for new buses VW would have sized the axles and CV joint center to center distance for the optimum length. On worn suspension, lowered or lifted buses, or sagging rear ends like mine the distance is different than what was original. Removing those washers allows the joints to seek a more natural center to center distance as the axles swing thru their arc. |
Last edited by Tcash on Sat May 31, 2014 8:30 am; edited 3 times in total |
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kreemoweet
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Wasted youth
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 9:37 am Post subject: |
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When I repacked mine on my 1973 bus, I found the PO left them installed, so I decided to ...disobey  ...Bentley and I also reinstalled them. no evidence of binding, wear or other issues. |
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rhmanatee
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the links to the previous discussions of this topic. Alas, there does not seem to be a consensus, so I guess I will put one in and leave the other out and see what happens. I will now set an alarm to check them in 5 years and report back!  |
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Desertbusman
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 11:40 am Post subject: |
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I have no idea of why anyone would pay any attention to what VW says to do with the axles. Obviously VW knew nothing about the design of these old junk vehicles. Drive them around the block a dozen times and they are ready for the scrap yard. It's too bad VW never gave any good instruction on how best to maintain them. On the other hand why would we listen to VW anyway? How absurd to think they know anything worthwhile.
I have no idea of why Buses were the longest production run of vehicles in history. But they would probably still be in production if VW hadn't removed those washers decades ago.
| Wasted youth/adulthood wrote: |
| I found the PO left them installed, so I decided to ..... I also reinstalled them. .... |
I love the reasoning there. We all know how wonderful the PO's were. 
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Last edited by Desertbusman on Fri May 30, 2014 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tcash
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Wasted youth
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Desertbusman wrote: |
| Wasted youth/adulthood wrote: |
| I found the PO left them installed, so I decided to ..... I also reinstalled them. .... |
I love the reasoning there. We all know how wonderful the PO's were. |
It may have seemed like I was wanting to follow in the footsteps of the PO, but that wasn't the idea. I was stating that as an indicator of how long I suspect the dished washers have been installed on my bus. My CV's showed minimal wear, even polishing in the ball sockets and no pitting or furrows. The idea here being the CV joints have an older date stamp, and the dished washers were there. They don't seem to be causing any problems. Here is a date stamp photo of mine when I serviced them:
Granted, it's possible he installed N.O.S. CV joints sometime in past five to ten years, but who knows. Unlike some people who really had a hard time pressing in the circlip if they also included the dished washer, I had no trouble reinstalling the CV joints with the washers reinstalled, and I did not see any evidence of binding, wear, shavings, or heat damage.
Bentley makes three notes about discarding them, (see page 6-7, Step 7 under Fig. 3-6, under Fig. 3-7 and again under Step 4 during reinstallation), but the user is left to their own imagination as to why the dished washer must be discarded. It is interesting to skim through other forums regarding this topic, as it seems there may be some information from Bentley that says to reinstall them...but only for bugs/things??
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=140405
Then I find this thread from a couple of years ago, where desertbusman's logic here I agree with, so based on this logic I could be persuaded to remove the washers next time I'm in there:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/archive/index.php/o-t--t-497464--.html
It is interesting that Bentley indicates the use of a press to remove and install the CV joints and the circlip to the axle shaft. I have never found this necessary. As far as VW design goes, I imagine there are a few arguments to be had about some other design characteristics and the logic behind them. |
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Desertbusman
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 5:55 am Post subject: |
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It's cool you found and posted that link.  And that you're on your toes also.  I wasn't really wanting to go thru the thinking and typing again. It's been a few times to much already.
Volkswagen of America (published in Bentley) says trash them. That's simple and straight forward and easy to comprehend. The arguments posted here and elsewhere for keeping them are wrong and I don't understand why people go to such frutal effort pursuing the dark side when it's the wonderful buses that suffer.
My buses butt very slightly sags but the axles are still slightly angled upward from the bearing housings to the trans. Now if I fully loaded my bus to weight capacity it might drop down to where the axles are fairly level. Pretty much the same as many of the mildly lowered rear ends. So in that orientation the distance between the bearing housing and trans, where the CV joints bolt to, is the shortest distance in the suspensions travel. And desired optimum distance between the joints on the axle is at the minimum but with the washers installed the distance is held at the maximum. It will cause the ball wear to be at the outward end of the ball grooves and it might also push inward on the trans flanges and cause internal problems there. It is the very opposite situation that Ray falsely described.
So removing the washers allows the axles to seek their own prefered effective lengths. It will not beat off the circlip as falsely mentioned. However installing the joint backwards or the the wrong side of the circlip is apt to fail anyway. There is no issue with the joints sliding on the splines.
Now with a bus stance as it was new or adjusted per the book or even mildly lifted then the CV joints do want to be extended out the full width when the bus bounces upward. With washers or without that will happen. It's just when the suspension bounces down that washers can be harmful.
So removing them is the safest way to do it and it might prevent issues. VW's followup on their design after evaluating service problems possibly prompted their change of instructions.
Yep, VW says bugs should have the washers. A bug at stock height has the axles level which means the shortest axle requirements. Nothing gained by removing bug washers. The way it is is the way it should be. It has nothing to do with the bus suspension geometry or removing the washers on buses.
When I used to use the washers ,yes, it was a hassle to compress it but never needed a press. And careful hammer work has always gotten joints on and off.
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Tcash
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 8:54 am Post subject: Drive Shaft Concave Washer |
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Good argument, Desert.
Questions;
1. Did VW stop installing the washers on new vehicles after the service bulletin was posted.
2. Did VW change anything in the rear suspension or drivetrain as a result of this bulletin.
3. Anymore arguments for or against removing washers?
Thank You
Tcash |
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rhmanatee
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Bentley says to use a press, but my CV joints slide easily over the splines by hand. Does this mean the fit is not tight enough and there is wear, indicating that replacement is in order? |
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Wasted youth
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Desertbusman wrote: |
| ...if I fully loaded my bus to weight capacity it might drop down to where the axles are fairly level. ...in that orientation the distance between the bearing housing and trans, where the CV joints bolt to, is the shortest distance in the suspensions travel. And desired optimum distance between the joints on the axle is at the minimum but with the washers installed the distance is held at the maximum. |
This is the best argument I've heard yet for removing the washers. Removing the washers allows the axle shafts to have a slight telescoping effect through the CV joints when it needs it most: Heavy vehicle weight applied to IRS in undulating terrain.
| Desertbusman wrote: |
| So removing the washers allows the axles to seek their own preferred effective lengths....Now with a bus stance as it was new or adjusted per the book or even mildly lifted then the CV joints do want to be extended out the full width when the bus bounces upward. With washers or without that will happen. It's just when the suspension bounces down that washers can be harmful. |
This is very interesting thinking. It had not occurred to me to consider the different geometry between buses and bugs. And the heavier loading capacities of buses or trucks versus a beetle or thing...and what that means to a 'compressed' axle/CV joint assembly under a fully loaded bus or truck.
Last edited by Wasted youth on Sat May 31, 2014 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shiningstar76
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:29 am Post subject: |
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I actually forgot to put them on my bus back in 2004. I remember staring at the assembled axles and noticing the dished washers on the table. There was no way in hell I was taking those CV's back off those splines.
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My bus caught on fire and is now on the other coast with someone who gave me money for it. |
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Tcash
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| rhmanatee wrote: |
| Bentley says to use a press, but my CV joints slide easily over the splines by hand. Does this mean the fit is not tight enough and there is wear, indicating that replacement is in order? |
Not necessarily, look for wear ridges on the shaft and rotational play between the ball knuckle and the shaft . If either of these exist its time for service.
Good Luck |
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Wasted youth
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| rhmanatee wrote: |
| Bentley says to use a press, but my CV joints slide easily over the splines by hand. Does this mean the fit is not tight enough and there is wear, indicating that replacement is in order? |
Maybe. I've never had one slide 'easily' on or off by hand. I always need to tap it off or on with a brass drift...but using a press provides a uniform pressure, both radially and axially on the CV. |
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airschooled
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: |
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I have a vintage Bentley from 1974 or 75, I'll be interested in seeing if there's any mention at all in it. Does anyone know if the Thing CVs (more similar to bus than bug) had a note about the washers?
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RalphWiggam
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2024 7:13 am Post subject: Re: CV Joint Dished Washer--Why does Bentley say to discard? |
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Just pulled apart my DS axle due to clacking and driving me crazy. Sounded bad.
Turns out mine don't have the washer and use the old inner section with no lip. That inner section was sliding back and forth on the splines banging against the circlip causing the racket.
So I'm going to try and find the washers and reinstall them. I can't take the noise and it doesn't seem safe. |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2024 9:34 am Post subject: Re: CV Joint Dished Washer--Why does Bentley say to discard? |
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Looking back in this thread....I am not buying at all....the Desertbusman theory that at minimum/maximum angle ....a joint with the washer now has a angle length and bearing position that is too long or short.
So what.
That is really no different than saying that your valve geometry is only perfect at half lift. At max lift and 0 lift your valve adjuster is swiping the valve tip way out of tolerance. Well no duh! But it spends a fraction of it's time in those positions.
The same goes for the CV joint and axle assembly. Yes, WITH the washer means.....without letting the CV joint slide in and out along the shaft splines .....at maximum axle angle....whether it's up or down (it will mostly be downward as the trailing arm/wishbone unloads).....yes....the center grooved hub splined to the shaft will pull the ball out of the exact center of it's position in both the inner and outer race of the CV.
So what. Maybe it's out 0.080" more or less?.....and its out for a second or two every how many miles? I mean....unless you are driving around in the desert for 200 miles with an air lift kit keeping the joint at maximum down angle....what are the odds this will matter at all?
This was an interesting thread with interesting links from a decade ago. I did learn something new about the later replacement joints with the raised/boss ring....that have enough height to not require using the dished washer. That was new to me.
But....with all of the "use this on these years but not one those models" crap in the Bentley....nowhere does it EXPLAIN exactly WHY so many millions of axles worked fine for decades....and now must no longer use the washer.
I can see this for the NEW joints with the raised boss.....but it sounds incorrect to have the same new rule for those still running the old joints.
Not buying it.
This sounds more to me like a directive from VW fo simplify methods.....at the cost of short term, out of warranty material. By that I mean....you have written dealer procedures for old models that require a press. Then you have other written procedures for NEW parts with no washer that do not require a press.
It's far easier for training and paperwork wise to get rid of the old method and move to one new method even if it accelerates spline wear on those still using the old parts. I would bet the reasoning is that probably most of the older parts are already a decade or so old. If you get another 3-5 years before a hub or spline craps out....cool. They will sell you a new one.
But the fact remains on some VW'S (I don't know if it was that much of a problem on the bus that sits with a sharper angle on its joints) .....that after they started removing the washer...and instructing people to remove the washer.....on a lot of cars like type 3 and 4 for sure.....the 1/8" to 3/16" pile of slack that now exists in the stack up of two joints and a shaft on each side of the car.....started causing the shaft to slide in and out on cornering.....and hammering a hole in the rubber and metal cap that covers the snap ring in the inner CV hub.
I remember when this whole controversy started.....mid to late 80's? Some kite started coming without dished washers....some still had them. Dealer keeps recommending that washer is obsolete...discard it. Two months later the snap ring on inner hub pops loose from pounding....and/or.....hole hammered in plastic and metal plug and gear oil leaking out of transmission into CV........and private mechanics railing against the dealer and Bentley because in too many vehicles....leaving out the dished Bellville washer....caused these problems.
In my opinion.....it's just another instance of some variation in engineering discovered by VW over the decades as items wear....and another instance of the Bentley not getting everything 100% right (through no fault of their own).
Ray |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2024 9:51 am Post subject: Re: CV Joint Dished Washer--Why does Bentley say to discard? |
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I don't think washers cause a problem so long as the snap ring is in factory condition and fully seated. The only problems I have seen is when the ring pops out of the groove and the ring is just one more piece of crap that could potentially get into the joint. With the washer in place, after the snap ring is installed it needs to be tapped fully into it's groove with a hammer and soft punch.
The one advantage of having the washer is that since the inner race is held tight against the snap ring, it doesn't beat against it and eventually mash up the splines making the race hard to remove from the axle shaft when servicing the CV.
Last edited by Wildthings on Sun Sep 29, 2024 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2024 11:41 am Post subject: Re: CV Joint Dished Washer--Why does Bentley say to discard? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
I don't think washers cause a problem so long as the snap ring is in factory condition can fully seated. The only problems I have seen is when the ring pops out of the groove and the ring is just one more piece of crap that could potentially get into the joint. With the washer in place, after the snap ring is installed it needs to be tapped fully into it's groove with a hammer and soft punch.
The one advantage of having the washer is that since the inner race is held tight against the snap ring, it doesn't beat against it and eventually mash up the splines making the race hard to remove from the axle shaft when servicing the CV. |
^^^^^ this!
Ray |
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