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Paul Jr
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2018
Posts: 458
Location: PA
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 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:29 pm Post subject: Cam bearings. |
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Ok so test fitting the cam in the next block and the double thrust bearings are super tight.
What is the best bet to buy to get a proper fit. The ones I have are silverline and from the measurements I can take here at home they are definately not right. |
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Zundfolge1432
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12599
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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| You did remove the tang on one side right?pics would be nice. Also check end float. |
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Paul Jr
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2018
Posts: 458
Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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I notched the block.
Have zero end play.
Cam barely turns.
Set cam in and tapped with drift as described on air cooled net.
Tried
Scat cam, CB cam, Web cam, and Engle all brand new in box.
Even the used scat cam wouldn’t turn. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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Did you drive cam both fore/aft directions? This seats the thrust bearings into the case, and normally increase end play a lot.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23553
Location: Oklahoma City
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Paul Jr
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2018
Posts: 458
Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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Yes I did. They are silver line bearings and I remember reading a few posts where others have had issues with them.
My local machinist said he had 3 sets of silverline rod bearings that were over spec.
I don’t own a micrometer but do have a dial caliper and my measurement of the outside to the outside of the thrust is exactly the same as all the cams. This leaves no room at all and actually pinches the cam making it tight and very hard to turn.
The cam bearings I used on the other engine dropped in and set with no problem. They were an older set of Mahle double thrust but Somone local told me they also had issues with them in the past couple years.
Any suggestions? |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4946
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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| Paul Jr wrote: |
Yes I did. They are silver line bearings and I remember reading a few posts where others have had issues with them.
My local machinist said he had 3 sets of silverline rod bearings that were over spec.
I don’t own a micrometer but do have a dial caliper and my measurement of the outside to the outside of the thrust is exactly the same as all the cams. This leaves no room at all and actually pinches the cam making it tight and very hard to turn.
The cam bearings I used on the other engine dropped in and set with no problem. They were an older set of Mahle double thrust but Somone local told me they also had issues with them in the past couple years.
Any suggestions? |
Narrow the thrust surface to fit the cam, very commen practice.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23553
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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| Paul Jr wrote: |
Yes I did. They are silver line bearings and I remember reading a few posts where others have had issues with them.
My local machinist said he had 3 sets of silverline rod bearings that were over spec.
I don’t own a micrometer but do have a dial caliper and my measurement of the outside to the outside of the thrust is exactly the same as all the cams. This leaves no room at all and actually pinches the cam making it tight and very hard to turn.
The cam bearings I used on the other engine dropped in and set with no problem. They were an older set of Mahle double thrust but Somone local told me they also had issues with them in the past couple years.
Any suggestions? |
Just be sure you do the "rap" backwards and forwards like John noted. This aligns them on teh case edge and sets the radius on the thrust flanges. Ray |
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Paul Jr
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2018
Posts: 458
Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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So what do I use to make them fit.
Think I would rather just buy new bearings that fit if it’s possible. |
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ekacpuc
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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| Paul Jr wrote: |
So what do I use to make them fit.
Think I would rather just buy new bearings that fit if it’s possible. |
With cam bearings it's better to have a too tight thrust than too loose (so you can sand it, not saying run them tight). You should really do a search because you'll find pics and videos on youtube explaining how to make them correct better than I can BUT I'll give it a shot.
None of the bearings are going to be perfect. You gotta choose the ones that are easiest to work with. I tried Mahle and Silverline on different occasions and both were tight.
You just sand the thrust on a piece of glass with some fine grit sand paper. I held both halves together and sanded them the same time to keep it as consistent as possible. I also used 320g to get it close and 600 to finish it off. Test fit the cam (be sure to smack it around a little as mentioned), sand and repeat as needed. I'm using straight cut gears so I didn't go crazy, just sanded until it spins smooth. The correct way to measure it would be with a dial gauge on a jig. Put the gauge on the end of the cam and push the cam then measure how much it moves. I wasn't super concerned with mine but some people treat these suckers like nascar motors. You just don't want it so tight that when the engine gets hot things don't expand enough to bind.
Pretty common practice with engine building. Blueprinting makes all the difference. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23553
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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Before you start sanding ANYTHING....read the how to I posted.
Cam bearings have always had some twist and it problem during crush between teh case halves. ....even back in teh day with better cam bearings than we have now.
On virtually all current cam bearings over the last decade or so....you need to FIRST install them...torque the case...rap the cam forward and then aft. It takes the twist/tension out of the bearings where their edges crush together and pinch the journals.
In about 90% of time...I have found that this fixes most if not all of the pinch/binding. If not...then you know you have some clearancing to look for.
Also...very important. If you are doing the double thrust mod...you are flipping a thrust bearing over backwards to the other side of the case.
On type 4 engines (cannot say for type 1)....the chamfer on both the case and the bearing are different from the inner side to the outer side....so that new bearing half will bind....unless you relieve the case chamfer....and rap the cam back and forth to set the corner radius on the thrust flange slightly sharper.
There are pictures of all of this in the link I posted. Ray |
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ekacpuc
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Before you start sanding ANYTHING....read the how to I posted.
Cam bearings have always had some twist and it problem during crush between teh case halves. ....even back in teh day with better cam bearings than we have now.
On virtually all current cam bearings over the last decade or so....you need to FIRST install them...torque the case...rap the cam forward and then aft. It takes the twist/tension out of the bearings where their edges crush together and pinch the journals.
In about 90% of time...I have found that this fixes most if not all of the pinch/binding. If not...then you know you have some clearancing to look for.
Also...very important. If you are doing the double thrust mod...you are flipping a thrust bearing over backwards to the other side of the case.
On type 4 engines (cannot say for type 1)....the chamfer on both the case and the bearing are different from the inner side to the outer side....so that new bearing half will bind....unless you relieve the case chamfer....and rap the cam back and forth to set the corner radius on the thrust flange slightly sharper.
There are pictures of all of this in the link I posted. Ray |
lol yeah what you said. I sometimes assume too much. I too ended up properly torquing the case together and thumped on the cam through the oil pump hole to make sure the cam was really in it's seated position. Through the build the motor should be built then measured and taken appart a few times before final assembly. I actually had mine in the car when I decieded to tear into it one last time to figure out why it spun over on the bench fine but not in the car. Turned out I didn't bolt the crank pulley on all the way during mock up (not once was it torqued) so of course the pulley contacted the case. Was a pretty silly reason to tear it appart outside when it could have easily been caught on the bench! |
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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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JUST went through this myself. I have Silverline was well.
Few things I learned from the GREAT SAMBA GODS here:
1-Check the thrust? Surface that rides along the thrust bearing on the cam. Sometimes it has a rough surface that will tear up the bearing sides.
2-make sure you have notched your case enough to allow the bearing to sit all the way down in the journal.
3-clean, clean, clean the journals and cam with soap and water. Dry thoroughly.
4-push bearings in making sure they are level on each lip of the cam journals.
5-I applied a small amount of permatex pre-lube to the bearings and cam.
6-Put other case half on and torque main screws down to 27ft lbs and smaller nuts down to 18-20 ft lbs.
7-Tap on the oil pump side of the cam to “set” that side. Then tap on other side of cam to “set” the other side of the bearings. (I used a large socket that barely fit into the case hole)
8-I tapped on each SIDE of the case as well-the flat part in the middle of the case.
9-It was still too tight without any clearance between the cam and thrust bearing.
10-Used wd40, 400 grit sandpaper, and a piece of flat glass. I pushed each cam bearing’s thrust surface about 10 passes on the sandpaper.
11-Washed REALLY well and repeated. I believe I had to do it twice before I was able to slip a .001-.002 feeler gauge between the two again. Cam spins great now!
Allow a little bit of space because the aluminum cam gear WILL expand a bit with the heat.
Just helping a fellow VDubber.
Oh yeah, I had to notch this one slightly in the corner also....
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Paul Jr
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2018
Posts: 458
Location: PA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:00 am Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Before you start sanding ANYTHING....read the how to I posted.
Cam bearings have always had some twist and it problem during crush between teh case halves. ....even back in teh day with better cam bearings than we have now.
On virtually all current cam bearings over the last decade or so....you need to FIRST install them...torque the case...rap the cam forward and then aft. It takes the twist/tension out of the bearings where their edges crush together and pinch the journals.
In about 90% of time...I have found that this fixes most if not all of the pinch/binding. If not...then you know you have some clearancing to look for.
Also...very important. If you are doing the double thrust mod...you are flipping a thrust bearing over backwards to the other side of the case.
On type 4 engines (cannot say for type 1)....the chamfer on both the case and the bearing are different from the inner side to the outer side....so that new bearing half will bind....unless you relieve the case chamfer....and rap the cam back and forth to set the corner radius on the thrust flange slightly sharper.
There are pictures of all of this in the link I posted. Ray |
I did read you post.
You started with a measured estimated .0021 end play. I have an estimated .zero end play, honestly I see no other option but to order new bearings or start sanding.
Just a little uncomfortable with the thought of sanding a bearing. Watching video and reading I see a lot of people doing it but for some reason in the back of my mind I just feel that this should not be done free hand.
With the thrust surface being slightly different from one side to the other it would feel more comforting to have some kind of a jig to hold both halves together and ensure a more uniform surface.
I have an Idea for a jig that I will work on after work today that will give me a lot more confidence sanding them if that is indeed the only way to get it correct.
As always thanks for the advice. |
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within.1
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2017
Posts: 179
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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| I also do the sanding technic just buying a new set of bearings may not solve the problem the last 3 sets of silverline cam bearings i got was to tight.i use a piece of glass on a level surface using fine grit sand paper keep down pressure and keep the bearing thrust surface flat dont let it twist or lift while sanding, it dont take much sanding so be careful not to go to far i check them every couple back and forth sandings with a mic |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23553
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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| Paul Jr wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Before you start sanding ANYTHING....read the how to I posted.
Cam bearings have always had some twist and it problem during crush between teh case halves. ....even back in teh day with better cam bearings than we have now.
On virtually all current cam bearings over the last decade or so....you need to FIRST install them...torque the case...rap the cam forward and then aft. It takes the twist/tension out of the bearings where their edges crush together and pinch the journals.
In about 90% of time...I have found that this fixes most if not all of the pinch/binding. If not...then you know you have some clearancing to look for.
Also...very important. If you are doing the double thrust mod...you are flipping a thrust bearing over backwards to the other side of the case.
On type 4 engines (cannot say for type 1)....the chamfer on both the case and the bearing are different from the inner side to the outer side....so that new bearing half will bind....unless you relieve the case chamfer....and rap the cam back and forth to set the corner radius on the thrust flange slightly sharper.
There are pictures of all of this in the link I posted. Ray |
I did read you post.
You started with a measured estimated .0021 end play. I have an estimated .zero end play, honestly I see no other option but to order new bearings or start sanding.
Just a little uncomfortable with the thought of sanding a bearing. Watching video and reading I see a lot of people doing it but for some reason in the back of my mind I just feel that this should not be done free hand.
With the thrust surface being slightly different from one side to the other it would feel more comforting to have some kind of a jig to hold both halves together and ensure a more uniform surface.
I have an Idea for a jig that I will work on after work today that will give me a lot more confidence sanding them if that is indeed the only way to get it correct.
As always thanks for the advice. |
No...actually I started with near "0" endplay.....again.....before even setting up the dial gauge....put your cam in with bearings and "rap" it forward and back.....or you will not get an accurate end play reading. If,after doing thst you still have no endplay.....FIRST check the coating and surface on the cam thrust face.....and only then modify the bearings.
Bluntly and simply put.....ALL cam bearings are imperfect. Installing them twists them slightly (misalignment).....and that misalignment means that they do not crush uniformly when the edge of both shells meet.....plus.....there is no such thing as an aboslutely perfect cam bore anyway.
All of this puts twist and stress in the cam bearings. You have to de-stress them and align them.
And no....I'm betting you didnt read the link I posted....not carefully....or you would have seen the section that details the fact that....as the two thrust bearing shells crush againsr each other.....the thrust flanges BULGE axially.
This REMOVES all thrust clearance. Takes it to "0". This is why you have to rap the camshaft forward and back. It re-crimps the radius where the the thrust flange meets the bearing.....takes out the stress and realigns the thrust flange....and voila....you get your clearance back.
Jusr do it.
Ray |
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Pruneman99
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Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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I messed with 3 sets of Silverline cam bearings before I finally gave up. It was like they were too big at the parting line. When they crushed, they went all taco shaped and distorted. Facing the thrust surface would not fix the problem. My cam tunnel was reamed: well the machine shop ran a cutter through the tunnel and the cutter only *just* touched a few places. I'm pretty certain cam tunnel is correct.
I had to order Mahle double thrust cam bearings three times before I actually got Mahle. But once I did, I set the bearings with a drift with the case torqued and the cam spins like glass.
Just my experience. I won't bother with the Silverline double thrust sets again.
The Silverline single thrust sat fine, no issues. |
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Paul Jr
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2018
Posts: 458
Location: PA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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So after setting it with a drift you had .0021 when measured.
I set mine with a drift and still come out with zero?
What should I use a 6lbs sledge hammer?  |
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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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Something isn’t right. We are talking about aluminum here.
Mine certainly changed after I set it. The cam wouldn’t even move.
After setting it it would move but not enough clearance so out came the sandpaper and wd40.
It’s good now! |
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rodjr
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2015
Posts: 223
Location: stanwood washington
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Cam bearings. |
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I threw away my silverline cam bearings as well, tried 2 sets in a new case. I smacked them a dozen times or better, both directions as hard as i dare.......no way, would have needed intensive work to make for a good fit, IF they could be even be made to fit.
Silverline mains yes, but the Silverline cam bearings i have tried, are just not right.
Bought some Mahle, fit perfect after a light smack. They do seem a bit softer though so i did a nice polish on the thrust surface of the cam. |
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