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Brian_e 
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 4235
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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 Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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| swharris wrote: |
| Brian, is the earlier kit available yet? I have a '62 that could use an upgrade. Thanks! |
Hey guys,
Here is the deal on the new early spindle disk kit.
The early spindles have a massive ID outer bearing, and the inner bearing is huge also. I have dug and dug, but there is nothing available for a hub that will be close to similar size like the current 64-67 EZ-Stop kit. The OD of the bearing makes them larger than most any current hub available. They are also metric, so it makes cross referencing sizes much more difficult.
So my solution, and most everyone else who makes early brake kits is to build a new hub from scratch. I have had a prototype done and fitting for a while now, but I am still trying to find a decent way to have the new hub manufactured. 6"+ Aluminum bar is expensive. It needs to be machined accurately to keep the bearing races in place, machine work on both sides, and also the stud holes drilled. There are machines and shops that do this no problem, but the cost of the hubs is starting to climb quickly, and I am worried it will make the cost of the kits too much.
Another option I have looked into is casting the hubs from iron, just like most other OE hubs and brake rotors. I have a foundry here in SDakota that can do them, and the price of the hubs is quite a bit less, but there is an initial $16,000 up front investment to cover the cost of the patterns, the core boxes, and the engineering. That $16,000 only gets me 50 hubs also. After the initial order, the individual cost of each hub will come down quite a bit, but $16k is a huge chunk for a small business to lay out at one time.
I have also gotten quotes from overseas, and they are more reasonably priced, but I will not be going that route for various other reasons.
So....I need to make a decision. Machined aluminum, or cast iron? Both have their merits, and I have gotten equal input from asking lots of people.
The cost of the early kit on my end will be $300 more minimum. The new hubs, plus the larger bearings are more expensive than the current kit. The early kit will be using the same calipers, same caliper brackets, and a same size, but different style rotor. All the extra parts should still be available for under $200 shipped. That would make the entire disk kit cost a guy right at $1000 +/-$100 shipped hopefully.
I know quite a few of you would buy the kit if it was available. Not sure I would be able to match the same 300+ kits you great folks have already bought of the current EZ-Stop kits.
It is a big, difficult decision for me, so I haven't taken the plunge yet. I was planning to get something figured out by the end of this month. I am still waiting to hear back from another machine shop. I guess I need to shit or get off the pot, so I am not keeping some of you waiting.
If anyone knows of a good smaller machine shop with a dual spindle CNC lathe with live tools, and a good programmer....please let me know.
Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok
Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4941
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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Got a kit from Brian for my 60 single cab(I am using later spindles) seems well built, gonna install them with my new beam and irs rear kit soon,,,, hopefully.
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BonTonRoulet
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2020
Posts: 486
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| Got a kit from Brian for my 60 single cab(I am using later spindles) seems well built, gonna install them with my new beam and irs rear kit soon,,,, hopefully. |
So, IF the solution already at hand to use the existing Type E front disc brake kit on an earlier bus/truck is to use the later model spindles, then I should think that would be the easiest and most economical decision for the early vehicle guys to make....just update your old spindles to the later ones because you'd probably want to rebuild your existing spindles anyway to get the most out of your new disc brake kit. Brian, might even be worthwhile to figure the cost of offering a pair of rebuilt later model spindles with your kit vs. machining a new hub? I should think just from a product liability standpoint going with the later model spindles vs. machining a new hub would be a huge factor.
Problem solved because it really wasn't a problem anyway!
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Never argue with an Idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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tpinthepack
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004
Posts: 856
Location: clearwater,florida
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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That is a good point BonTon! 63-67 spindles are getting hard to find, so maybe spindle production would be cheaper than hub production.
_________________
TP in the Pack (I am a cyclist)
1968 Manx N.O.S. w/ Barrett Chassis
1960 Single Cab 1914 w/ 40 DLRA's
1990 Vanagon DOKA
1972 Super Beetle
1979 Super Beetle Convertible
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swharris
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2010
Posts: 646
Location: N. Orange County
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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Eric,
Thank you for being so open and honest with all of us. Your contribution to the hobby is significant and frankly, not to put too fine a point on it... life-saving. It is much appreciated.
I think we can all appreciate the situation you have laid out. I have two early buses that still run drums and while I don't personally have an issue as my buses are completely stock down to the 40hp motors, others may be using these buses well beyond their initial design envelopes and upgrades like you provide are critical additions. As well, all of us are living in a driving world with massive SUV distracted drivers and the ability to stop quickly is never a bad thing.
With that said, I live daily with what happens in the aftermath of a significant collision with a modern van in a 60-year-old bus a loved one is driving. Life-changing does not come close to describing life with an SCI. It is a daily reminder of how fragile and frankly dangerous a VW bus is. It reminds me the cost of safety is irrelevant, safety should be paramount at any cost. We all at least passingly understand the danger we put ourselves in every time we climb in these beloved contraptions, but facing the real costs of that danger, most never see. Any additional safety is something we all should address and I am speaking mostly to myself here. The fact disc brakes would not have made a difference or changed our situation is irrelevant but I view the risk of driving vintage busses differently now.
I would pay the price regardless, but I could well be the exception to most.
Regarding the material choice, I would want the material that was the strongest and longest lasting, and seeing what the factory used and how those components have stood the test of time, I would go with the steel.
Again, thank you for your efforts! |
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 4220
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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I think with Aerkewld and CSP selling kits for close to $2000, most guys would gladly pay an extra 300 - 500 or more for an early kit. I would.
Plus those use too many proprietary parts that are only single sourced
Used 64 67 spindles arent in good supply. Making new ones is a big deal, big money up front to start production |
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earlywesty
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2004
Posts: 2381
Location: In the woods, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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| I think at $1000usd all-in they will sell. I'd almost prefer steel to aluminum. Look forward to the end product! |
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2type2
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 1210
Location: SW Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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For the 64-67 busses you can't beat the price. If I calculated correctly , my kit plus all parts needed and a quart of dot4 came to $829.36 total.I have dual MC already. Just considering the ease of parts accessibility and how straightforward this setup is, I can't see where other kits show any real advantage over this one.
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Busstom
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Joined: November 23, 2014
Posts: 4585
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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If I read correctly here, steel hubs aren't an option, the options are cast iron or machined aluminum. And the later split spindles are just as scarce as chicken teeth, so everybody upgrading to those isn't a solution either.
While I don't have any skin in the game, my choice would be machined aluminum to marginally reduce the unsprung weight, while simultaneously having two fewer components rusting under the front end. Though I think the iron would be more durable in the long run.
If I did the arithmetic correctly, even the first run of cast hubs would be reasonable (if machining was included) at $320 a hub. I paid more than that for a set of 4 custom hubs from a well-known vendor here whose kits many of you are running (i.e. $1,600 for all four hubs).
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My name's Steve and it's pronounced "Bust 'em" (cuz people think I'm Tom)
| cory464 wrote: |
| if you aren't perfectly centered in the hole you will have issues when you tap it. |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 4235
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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I was poking around on rockauto.com, and they have wholesale close out on the rotors needed for the Type E brake kit for $12.96. They are the good Durago brand. I tried to add 100 of them to my cart, and it showed they had 57 in stock.
Here is the link if anyone wants extras, or is thinking about swapping to disks on their 64-70 bus.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/chevrolet,1986...rotor,1896
Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok
Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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Bulli Klinik
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 2235
Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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Thanks for the heads up. They had calipers on sale as well for about $16.00 and pads for $6.00. I almost felt guilty until I paid $40 for shipping. Great deal, regardless.
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PM me about quality metal-work on your vehicle.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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VWAdam
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2002
Posts: 3351
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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| swharris wrote: |
Eric,
Thank you for being so open and honest with all of us. Your contribution to the hobby is significant and frankly, not to put too fine a point on it... life-saving. It is much appreciated.
I think we can all appreciate the situation you have laid out. I have two early buses that still run drums and while I don't personally have an issue as my buses are completely stock down to the 40hp motors, others may be using these buses well beyond their initial design envelopes and upgrades like you provide are critical additions. As well, all of us are living in a driving world with massive SUV distracted drivers and the ability to stop quickly is never a bad thing.
With that said, I live daily with what happens in the aftermath of a significant collision with a modern van in a 60-year-old bus a loved one is driving. Life-changing does not come close to describing life with an SCI. It is a daily reminder of how fragile and frankly dangerous a VW bus is. It reminds me the cost of safety is irrelevant, safety should be paramount at any cost. We all at least passingly understand the danger we put ourselves in every time we climb in these beloved contraptions, but facing the real costs of that danger, most never see. Any additional safety is something we all should address and I am speaking mostly to myself here. The fact disc brakes would not have made a difference or changed our situation is irrelevant but I view the risk of driving vintage busses differently now.
I would pay the price regardless, but I could well be the exception to most.
Regarding the material choice, I would want the material that was the strongest and longest lasting, and seeing what the factory used and how those components have stood the test of time, I would go with the steel.
Again, thank you for your efforts! |
Of course there's always situations where the accident is inevitable.
However I have had one instance since I put the discs on my Bus where I had to do a full panic stop from about 55-60mph when someone pulled out in front of me. I can't say for certain that i would have hit him with the stock brakes but I know it was pretty close with the discs and it's possible they saved me from a crash.
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2type2
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 1210
Location: SW Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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Have only had the opportunity to put about 80 miles on these since installed on the 66 bus but what a joy. Night and day difference doesn't state it enough. Excited for the coming great spring weather soon to get out and explore.
NOW ---- go re -torque those 16 nuts and Allen heads! Around 20 miles was on bumpy dirt roads, on purpose- and everything needed a little snug up.We all know it's good practice to check everything after a run in, but did you?
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Vetterdog
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2010
Posts: 25
Location: Dirty Jerz
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| Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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Edit- I looked at the instructions, it says IF you have the valve. I guess I dont! Thanks, Dave
Last edited by Vetterdog on Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:43 am; edited 2 times in total |
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70bus
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2004
Posts: 1722
Location: P.O.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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Just watched the partsguyjay video last night.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0uL5xKgSbM
It doesn't look like he put the cap back on. As he also is doing an early bay there might be an answer to the relief valve question there . I don't recall a mention of it.
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams
Raoul the 65 singlecab
Karl the 70 nine-seater |
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70bus
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2004
Posts: 1722
Location: P.O.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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So has anyone used the Type E kit and big tires like Grabbers? 3/8" extra width might be fine with skinny tires; wondering if the wider ones rub anywhere...
_________________
Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams
Raoul the 65 singlecab
Karl the 70 nine-seater |
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Saul Koll
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2008
Posts: 196
Location: Portland
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| Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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I'm running the Type E kit with 15" General Grabbers on my early '64 big nut single cab. Zero clearance issues or tire rub with the spacers.
These brakes are fantastic and and easily my favorite modification to my truck.
Here's a pic right after I installed them, and later with hubcaps back on. (Sorry it's not super clear)
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 4235
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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| Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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| 70bus wrote: |
Just watched the partsguyjay video last night.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0uL5xKgSbM
It doesn't look like he put the cap back on. As he also is doing an early bay there might be an answer to the relief valve question there . I don't recall a mention of it. |
Pull the fitting out, pop the cap off and throw out everything except the big fitting with the 17mm hex. It should be just a straight through hole when you are done. If you have drum brakes on that circuit, you will need to leave the valve in place.
Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok
Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 4235
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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| Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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| 70bus wrote: |
| So has anyone used the Type E kit and big tires like Grabbers? 3/8" extra width might be fine with skinny tires; wondering if the wider ones rub anywhere... |
Lots of guys running big tires on splits and baywindows. No rubbing issues.
Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok
Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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70bus
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2004
Posts: 1722
Location: P.O.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: Type e motorsports disc brake review |
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Awesome - I bought the kit before I bought the Grabbers :P
Saul, what rotors/calipers did you use? I don't care about cheapest, or exotic; more interested in what works well and might still be available in 5 or 6 years or more. Also, your first pic should go over in the 'how much did you haul' thread if not there already.
My drum brakes are actually pretty good - but I'd prefer great. Mostly since drivers assume I left that space between the car in front of me and my truck for them to weave into.
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams
Raoul the 65 singlecab
Karl the 70 nine-seater |
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