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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10690
Location: Western WA
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 Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| epowell wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
| epowell wrote: |
| So are you saying that if the 46 nut is torqued correctly and not left for too many years between removals, then "a 3 foot pipe with 120 lbs" is all that should be necessary? |
I absolutely suppose that 100% ! |
So the point then is to remove that nut at least once every 2 or 3 years... and there never should be a problem. |
OK I gotcha, yeah that could do it. Anti-sieze on the nut might stretch the interval to 20 years though. But maybe you could service your brakes every 3 years too. There are some benefits.
But the person who maintains his van this "well" buys the proper tools too and probably does not have such problems.
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Abscate 
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 24123
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| PDXWesty wrote: |
| I left my wheels on and with a 3' pipe on my breaker bar it broke loose with a couple of good bounces. The tires and breaks will keep it from spinning. I don't know why everything gets overcomplicated when you ask a question on a forum. |
Is that sarcasm , true enquiry, or just an excellent segue into life's true mysteries ??
(This is just a friendly post wondering the same thing)
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| PDXWesty wrote: |
| I left my wheels on and with a 3' pipe on my breaker bar it broke loose with a couple of good bounces. The tires and breaks will keep it from spinning. I don't know why everything gets overcomplicated when you ask a question on a forum. |
Is that sarcasm , true enquiry, or just an excellent segue into life's true mysteries ??
(This is just a friendly post wondering the same thing) |
There is a lot of complex psychology involved. Some "experts" on forums know quite a lot but have low self-esteem and attempt to boost their egos by playing "King on the mountain top"... like, I'm here and by golly it's going to be tough for you newby to get here. ...then there are paranoid perfectionist types who know a lot and get incredibly anal about "how things should be done". ...then there are newbies like myself who are afraid of making mistakes and feel the need to look at it from 20 different angles... and many other personality types as well > that's what make up a FORUM.  LOL
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clift_d
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2012
Posts: 272
Location: Hackney innit, UK
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| epowell wrote: |
| Anti-sieze on the nut might stretch the interval to 20 years though. |
I don't think VW advise putting anything on the threads that might act as a lubricant, as it can lead to over-tightening of the hub nut, evidenced by the fact that most of these hub nuts don't generally have any anti seize paste on them already.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52510
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Try sitting in the cab and have someone remove the axle nut, you will probably hardly be able to feel it as comparatively little force is being transmitted while doing so. |
Try sitting on the hub while someone whacks it with a sledge. That would LARN YA!  |
Try sitting on the hub while the wash boards are apply enough force to throw the tire up off the ground even when the tire has a big hunk of the van's weight sitting on it, this is many many times the puny load you are worrying about from using a impact tool to remove the bearings. When in use the bearings are subject to the static weight of the vehicle, the much higher dynamic loads from going over rough surface, and a lot of resonance. When using an impact tool you only are going to get some fairly minor resonance in comparison.
Have you ever tried to remove the axle shaft from a heavy truck? This can take many blows of a 16# sledge to accomplish. The loads reaching the bearing are going to be maybe three orders of magnitude great than what the bearings on the rear bearings of a Vanagon are ever going to see when loosening the nut.
How about installing a drive flange on a big electric motor in the field? Again the loads are extreme compared to the almost non existent load of removing the Vanagon axle nut with an impact tool.
You are worrying about a problem that just doesn't exist. |
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| clift_d wrote: |
I don't think VW advise putting anything on the threads that might act as a lubricant, as it can lead to over-tightening of the hub nut, evidenced by the fact that most of these hub nuts don't generally have any anti seize paste on them already. |
From my understanding using a tiny bit of blue thread-locker actually makes nuts come loose easier over many years because that stuff acts as an anti-corrosion element, ...is this correct?
I've never used anti-seize in my life. Usually I use nothing... but what do I know (next to nothing LOL )
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10690
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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Could reduce the 365 ft lbs some amount for Anti-seize. It's cotter-pinned. It's probably worse in some environments. No problem in others. And no problem for shops, it's mainly a DIY problem I think.
| Wildthings wrote: |
...the almost non existent load of removing the Vanagon axle nut with an impact tool.
You are worrying about a problem that just doesn't exist. |
Which impact tool, the air operated rotational tool? Agreed that's no problem.
Or the sledge hammer that puts massive (sledgely) radial impact, that translates to a rotation once the ball bearings impact their races?
Sledges do all kinda stuff you know, violent stuff. But you could be right. And you could be wrong too.
Maybe the van is "just a van" not some special antique that someone will covet for 20 years. Certainly a lot of vans are "just a van" and they need to just "get fixed". And let someone else do the coveting, someday, if the van's still good. Fingers crossed on the bearings and NLA housings.
So maybe the takeaway from this is - the sledge method is viable as a last resort for some feller who has no other option and just needs to get it done. It's not like anyone has to know the vans rear wheel bearings have been sledged. And even if they do, it's common in the VW world that this is "OK".
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'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52510
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
C
Which impact tool, the air operated rotational tool? Agreed that's no problem.
Or the sledge hammer that puts massive (sledgely) radial impact, that translates to a rotation once the ball bearings impact their races?. |
With the tire sitting on the ground, the drum on a block, or the hub on a jack stand there is zero radial load on the bearing, this has been explained to your repeatedly. The only loads on the bearing are a very minor vibration. Again, you are worrying about a problem that does not exist and at worse is paltry compared to the everyday loads on the bearings. |
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wcdennis
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2004
Posts: 955
Location: Winston-Salem NC
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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Deleted
Last edited by wcdennis on Wed May 24, 2017 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5533
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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Hmmm...no wonder so many people leave this forum and don't come back. Epowell, I admire your tenacity and resilience.
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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BINGO !!
<<I don't think VW advise putting anything on the threads that might act as a lubricant, as it can lead to over-tightening of the hub nut, evidenced by the fact that most of these hub nuts don't generally have any anti seize paste on them already.>>
86 posts and a pretty astute kinda guy.
Maybe leads to over tightening, right now tightening it down doesn't seem to be a problem, how to make this a 3 minute job is the issue.
Lot's of union don't kill the job folks working here.
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Last edited by Terry Kay on Wed May 24, 2017 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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clift_d
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2012
Posts: 272
Location: Hackney innit, UK
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| epowell wrote: |
| From my understanding using a tiny bit of blue thread-locker actually makes nuts come loose easier over many years because that stuff acts as an anti-corrosion element, ...is this correct? |
It's my understanding as well that threadlocker is the best stuff to use as it gums up all the gaps in the threads and prevents moisture penetration, without providing any real lubrication. You definitely need to make sure you use the blue one and NOT the red one though.
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10690
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| Quote: |
| Imagine what stress the bearings see on a washboard gravel road carrying the weight a fully loaded van. |
....there's 6 inches of pneumatic tire cushion between the washboard and the wheel bearing. I don't see the correlation. There is the force of Van weight, but theres "air" cushioning the impacts. A lot of air, like 6 inches.
Hitting a bearing with a Sledge hammer (almost directly) across the balls just ain't right. But agreed it can get you to your next step.  Perhaps adding another step down the road.
But in any case its kind of a fun discussion (for some). It brings up a lot of subjects. Sorry to the rest. Forum needs more trip reports. Maybe as these vans get older more people work on them that take trips. That might be me but I'm almost driving!
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu May 25, 2017 7:32 am; edited 2 times in total |
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mackaymanx
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Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 480
Location: Australia
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 24123
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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Counterpoint. In the nasty salty Northeast, we always lived our rear axle nut ( bugs and busses) but backed torque off 20-30%
After putting in the pin, we would watch it for the next few hundred miles to make sure it didn't move
That made removal a lot easier. Stuff rusts up,here, badly.
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| Hmmm...no wonder so many people leave this forum and don't come back. Epowell, I admire your tenacity and resilience. |
For what??
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32989
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 2:39 am Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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I have not visited this thread for awhile, I saw βpage 9" I thought...... what the heck is going on that an axle nut post grows to 9 pages?!?!?
While some view it as nonsense, I see people having lively discussion and more importantly fun extrapolating out the various methods and the possibility of bearing damage during the process.
Anyway.......
The worst stuck nut I ever had was on a Beetle.
Propped the socket with a 5' pipe on the nut, laid and braced the pipe on the driveway, got in and started the car, put it into gear and drove slowly forward. The nut broke loose effortlessly!
But, the drum was rusted on.
Left the nut a little loose, put a cotter pin in and went for a short slow drive hitting lots of bumps and making many turns.
Came home, jacked it up, spun off the nut and slipped off the drum.
Easy Peasy
Dave
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5533
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:36 am Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| epowell wrote: |
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| Hmmm...no wonder so many people leave this forum and don't come back. Epowell, I admire your tenacity and resilience. |
For what?? |
The number one thing is your van. I mean, you have been presented with many challenges that would make most give up, but you persevered. You taught yourself to weld, to be a better mechanic, to learn about the idiosyncrasies of these vans, etc. and you haven't given up. I admire that...greatly. And all the while you have been doing this, you have been given some great advice and have sparked some lively technical discussions, but you have also been presented with some human interaction that was less than supportive and less than kind at times. And I'm not talking about just this thread. I'm talking about all of your threads. You seem to be able to let stuff like that roll off your back and you just keep plugging away.
So yeah, my comment was more about the whole of your threads and some of the negative content, not just this thread in particular. It was a compliment. Not too many people come in here and do what you have done (technically and personally) and I think that's really cool.
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"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 24123
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:11 am Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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The farther east you go in Europe, the tougher the people get. Y0u pretty much reach the limit of human toughness at Poland.
Now poor epowell has to waste his time looking for the offense up thread, and wondering where it is.
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OrganicMechanic
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2009
Posts: 93
Location: St Louis MO
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: How do I remove the rear axle nut? |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| epowell wrote: |
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| Hmmm...no wonder so many people leave this forum and don't come back. Epowell, I admire your tenacity and resilience. |
For what?? |
The number one thing is your van. I mean, you have been presented with many challenges that would make most give up, but you persevered. You taught yourself to weld, to be a better mechanic, to learn about the idiosyncrasies of these vans, etc. and you haven't given up. I admire that...greatly. And all the while you have been doing this, you have been given some great advice and have sparked some lively technical discussions, but you have also been presented with some human interaction that was less than supportive and less than kind at times. And I'm not talking about just this thread. I'm talking about all of your threads. You seem to be able to let stuff like that roll off your back and you just keep plugging away.
So yeah, my comment was more about the whole of your threads and some of the negative content, not just this thread in particular. It was a compliment. Not too many people come in here and do what you have done (technically and personally) and I think that's really cool. |
Good form, sir
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