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How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out!
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BFB
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2025 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

Fun With VDubs wrote:
Alstrup wrote:
Soo. Where to begin.... Lets take it from the top

39 mm. Solex carburettor.
Adding that on top of a stock intake manifold will do next to no good. In fact it will almost only make your life more complicated.
Half of the potential gain will be eliminated in the adapter some people use to size it down to the manifold size. If the carb is attached directly with no adapter it is equally poor.
All 37 & 39 mm carbs DO NOT work with stock SVDA distributors. Reason is that the vacum orifice sits too low in relation to the butterfly.This leads us to the next issue.

Distributors.
First, there was no telling whether they swopped coil along with the distributors. I have to assume they did, because the same coil on all the distributors would result in even larger differences.
Now, The reason to why the 009 performed the best is pretty simple. It had the Ignitor 3 module. And what is the ”3” module? - Multispark. We will come back to that.

In this particular set up they have opted for a slightly higher than stock duration camshaft, but relatively low lift. Then they have opted for large valve heads, because large valve heads makes sense on a larger displacement, right(?) - No, not necessarilly. What happens here is that due to the rate, in lack of a better word, of the intake, the intake port velocity is fairly good at lower rpms, so the engine makes decent torque down low, but tapers off pretty soon. That is because the engine can´t breathe. The ”time area” is wrong and the intake vacum becomes is wrong in relation to the cylinderhead, so the intake port is inefficient most of the time, which again means that the fuel mix in the chamber never becomes good. And that´s where the Ignitor 3 comes into play. Due to its multispark however not especially strong it does have a significantly longer spark duration, which means that the fuel mix gets lit up better, and THAT´s where the extra torque and +2 hp peak power comes from. Not the 009 , not the carb, but the burn quality.

The SVDA dizzy. Can be a fine solution, but definitely not here.
As I already mentioned, the 39 Solex carb does not work with a normal SVDA.
Also, the overall mechanical timing curve in a stock 113 series SVDA does not match the engine. So it is a no brainer that that didnt work well. (If they did´nt swop coil at this point then there is another reason to poor running and poor power)
The CB dizzy. Well, it was obvious that the timing curve out of the box didnt match the engine´s requirements, but they apparently didnt bother playing with neither springs nor advance stops to find the sweet spot. The ”missing” 2 hp is explained above.

As for advancing the timing at idle, where the postulate is that if you advance it at idle you pound the main bearings.... Seldom in my life have I heard such a postulate. How should that be connected? Of course, if you advance it so much that the engine pings there is an issue, otherwise, no. That guy should take a look at the timing map on a modern engine with even a factory ECU. He will be in for a rude awakening.
With all engines, but especially engines fed by one carb or 2 sgl barrel, (or a V8 fed with a 4 barrel) you – should – set the timing where the engine likes it. To be understood like this. When you add cam duration you effectively reduce the intake mix quality from a little up to dramaticly. So what do you do to counter that ? You richen it up, right. Now, how does a rich mix burn compared to a stoich or slightly lean? … SLOW. How does a poor fuel mix burn compared to a good mix?... SLOW. Soo, in order to compensate for this you ADD timing at idle, so you can still have something like 80% burn before 20 degrees ATDC. Depending on the tune and the combo that can be anything from a couple of degrees to a full 10 degrees. (On big V8´s with way too much cam for street use I have had to go to 25 degrees idle timing before the engine would idle reasonably well)

So, at the end of the day it is fully explainable and not at all strange why the 009 with the Ignitor3 won this ”competition”. There are of course other factors, but you can generally say that the poorer the red thread in your build is, the better ignition you need. The poorer the fuel mix is, the better ignition you need. Also, another often very overlooked factor is, that the larger the bore the ”hotter” the ignition needs to be. For comparison, take a look at for instance 79-on VW type 2/4 2,0. WBX engines and similar, and see how they have made the ignition.

Getting back to the carb solution. In this case a stock 34 mm Solex with a 28 mm venturi would have been a much better choice, because then the vacuum for the SVDA would have worked and then you could have modified the timing curve – and to an extent the vacum pattern to what the engine wanted. That solution woúld most likely not even have cost torque, and definitely not peak hp because such a carb will support 95 hp easy. Also, the dreaded off idle stumble would also be easier to eliminate, even with a 009.

Then people will, once again come out and say that you can´t adjust an SVDA. Right. A few econo dizzy´s are not adjustable, but most are. I will once again link to a Ford guy who shows it well. It is the same base type distributor, so the proceedure is the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkMLNRARGUE&t=192s On most 205´s it is even easier through the inspection hole.

I could write another essay on the 37/39 carb and intake and how to make power, but I will restrain from that since that was not the subject of that video. Also, there are some very good Baja class tuners around who can tell you even more than I can on that subject though that is of course mostly racing. Only will I say, a 39 mm Solex, prepared right, on top of the right intake will support 140 hp in street trim. Not race, street.

I hope this helps understanding the odd results from this video.


Wow! Where do I begin? Laughing First, many of your "assumptions" are of course terribly incorrect. Laughing But thank you for taking so much time out of your busy life to come on a message board and criticize almost every aspect of our video. Did you at least like the color of the shirt I was wearing? Laughing

In all seriousness, you clearly are the World's foremost authority on all things VW air-cooled. We all look forward to seeing your videos, or books, when they finally get published. #Sleep


Oprn is right, THIS is the basic premise of this site. Well, at least this forum.
And this is also why this forum doesnt have serious / big time engine builders and racers post here and why Fun with VDubs will eventually quit posting their videos here too.
Does no one wonder why we dont see posts from people from places like CB, Pauter, Sweden ,..? to name a few. Yeh, we know why though.
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Alexander_Monday
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2025 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

I for one am glad this forum isn't Speed Talk for VW's.
A lot of sharks there circling waiting for a post by a non big time engine builder/ racer that doesn't have 98% of the answer in the question.
Just my observation.
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2025 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

I was hoping my essay would be taken constructive instead of offensive. It would also be relatively easy to either call me out ofr verify my postulate. Just hook that engine up to the dyno again and use a regular 009 w. a Ignitior1, Hot spark or similar module and make some pulls again.
Ditto with the carb. A 34 mm Solex w. 28 mm venturi and see what it does to the powerband and throttle response, as well as then being able to use the SVDA if they wanted to challenge that.
Another thing, of minor importance, but still. A lower compression 94 mm bore, with average heads´n chambers USUALLY makes best power at 31-32 degrees total. The hotter the spark the lesser the timing, as well as the better the chamber the lesser the timing. Really good heads and a HOT ignition and I have seen 94 bores optimise right down to 28 degrees total. But that is rare.

And no, I am not writing a book, because everything I say, or at least the majority, is already on the internet. You just have to search for it. But sometimes it takes some digging though, and you have to go outside the mainstream forums and look in the shady corners.

This was not aimed at stopping making videos either. But I hope that you realize by now that everything is not equal. Every little change you make has an impact on something else. Sometimes good, often bad. You need to remember that the rookies in this game often take such videos for solid evidence and think thats how its done and then accept a lazy throttle or a poor burn or whatever the issue might be., which is not so good when that issue 90% of the time can/could be fixed with a slight change of parts.

Last. I must admit that I didnt pay attention to the colour of the T shirt. My bad Rolling Eyes Cool

´nuf said. Im outa here.
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2025 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
I was hoping my essay would be taken constructive instead of offensive. It would also be relatively easy to either call me out ofr verify my postulate. Just hook that engine up to the dyno again and use a regular 009 w. a Ignitior1, Hot spark or similar module and make some pulls again.
Ditto with the carb. A 34 mm Solex w. 28 mm venturi and see what it does to the powerband and throttle response, as well as then being able to use the SVDA if they wanted to challenge that.
Another thing, of minor importance, but still. A lower compression 94 mm bore, with average heads´n chambers USUALLY makes best power at 31-32 degrees total. The hotter the spark the lesser the timing, as well as the better the chamber the lesser the timing. Really good heads and a HOT ignition and I have seen 94 bores optimise right down to 28 degrees total. But that is rare.

And no, I am not writing a book, because everything I say, or at least the majority, is already on the internet. You just have to search for it. But sometimes it takes some digging though, and you have to go outside the mainstream forums and look in the shady corners.

This was not aimed at stopping making videos either. But I hope that you realize by now that everything is not equal. Every little change you make has an impact on something else. Sometimes good, often bad. You need to remember that the rookies in this game often take such videos for solid evidence and think thats how its done and then accept a lazy throttle or a poor burn or whatever the issue might be., which is not so good when that issue 90% of the time can/could be fixed with a slight change of parts.

Last. I must admit that I didnt pay attention to the colour of the T shirt. My bad Rolling Eyes Cool

´nuf said. Im outa here.


It all comes across as arrogance with a know-it-all attitude!
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2025 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

veedubcrazy wrote:
Alstrup wrote:
I was hoping my essay would be taken constructive instead of offensive. It would also be relatively easy to either call me out ofr verify my postulate. Just hook that engine up to the dyno again and use a regular 009 w. a Ignitior1, Hot spark or similar module and make some pulls again.
Ditto with the carb. A 34 mm Solex w. 28 mm venturi and see what it does to the powerband and throttle response, as well as then being able to use the SVDA if they wanted to challenge that.
Another thing, of minor importance, but still. A lower compression 94 mm bore, with average heads´n chambers USUALLY makes best power at 31-32 degrees total. The hotter the spark the lesser the timing, as well as the better the chamber the lesser the timing. Really good heads and a HOT ignition and I have seen 94 bores optimise right down to 28 degrees total. But that is rare.

And no, I am not writing a book, because everything I say, or at least the majority, is already on the internet. You just have to search for it. But sometimes it takes some digging though, and you have to go outside the mainstream forums and look in the shady corners.

This was not aimed at stopping making videos either. But I hope that you realize by now that everything is not equal. Every little change you make has an impact on something else. Sometimes good, often bad. You need to remember that the rookies in this game often take such videos for solid evidence and think thats how its done and then accept a lazy throttle or a poor burn or whatever the issue might be., which is not so good when that issue 90% of the time can/could be fixed with a slight change of parts.

Last. I must admit that I didnt pay attention to the colour of the T shirt. My bad Rolling Eyes Cool

´nuf said. Im outa here.


It all comes across as arrogance with a know-it-all attitude!


To the uneducated, maybe. I don't see it as arrogance at all, but I'm sure you'll find it in my reply as well.

I'm also sure a lot of kiddos see a youtube video and assume they know what they are doing and taking it as gospel lol:
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2025 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

Seems like a lot of hate towards someone who offers up some in-depth knowledge of MAYBE why some things worked or didn't work. Having watched all of the videos, they certainly can't be considered to be super thorough dyno testing, more like "what happens when you do this?", and typical of what a back-yard mechanic may do. A lot of people here need to remember that many people are starting to work on these things with near zero basic troubleshooting knowledge (and I mean like: it doesn't run, what should I check?? ) ANY information can be helpful if you let it be
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2025 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

Maybe should have bolted on those 48IDAs you showed in a previous episode before the turbo? Just to see what it would do? I'd bet at least 5 more HP! Shocked Very Happy
I think the real lesson here is you can't just bolt on the "latest and greatest" go-fast parts and expect huge performance gains. Like Jake always preaches: "It's all in the combo".
No matter, I have a great time watching the videos! Definitely entertaining.
Jeff
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2025 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

Maybe they jumped the shark with the turbo. I like turbos, so I didn’t mind. But, bolt on Kadrons or IDF’s on a near stock engine would have been nice to see.
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2025 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

I really liked the idea of bolting on a 34 PICT and see how it compared to the 39. I would also like to see a single 34 ICT/EPC given a chance on a stock manifold with a spacer to make the linkage clear.
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2025 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

I’d be willing to be that Fun With VDubs would do (more) videos with some of the other stuff ya’ll mentioned like the 34 vs 39, IF ‘experts’ werent telling them how they should’ve done thing and what they did wrong.
I mean what they’re doing and the point of their videos is right in their name , “FUN”. They’re having fun with with it, or at least trying to. They didn’t name it “super serious scientific end all - be all research with VDubs” FFS.

I hope Fun with VDubs can set the shit aside and that they keep doing videos like they have been. We’ve seen plenty of videos and results of larger P&C, stroked engines, it’s nice to see stuff that the average vw guy would do to his engine and see results of it. Whether those results are 100% accurate and repeatable across the board doesnt matter because most of the experts here have drawn conclusions from one off results and preach it as gospel. Fun with VDubs isnt trying to tell anyone to do this or that , whats right or wrong, just simply ‘this is what we did and here’s the results’ and i respect the hell out of that.

This is how you say something to try to encourage people. Pointing out their faults and telling them how much better of a job you’d do , then attempting to label it as ‘constructive criticism’ isnt, nor is blaming them for not seeing it as ‘constructive’
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2025 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

Name one other person on here who posts detailed build sheets with resulting dyno graphs and explains why it works the way it does, with NO economic incentive to do so.

Show me another who has pulled 140 horse out of the "lowly" PICT-3, without power adders. And I seriously doubt he's bullshitting. Not his style as far as I can tell.

WRT the videos, I admit they are entertaining and informative to see some of the myths busted about power pulleys and the like.

Not that anyone asked, but personally, if I had a dyno room at my disposal I'd be out there trying to turn it into a cash cow; maybe there's enough $$ in you tube videos to make it worthwhile, maybe there isn't. I further admit don't understand the you tube economy.

Point being, everything Alstrup has recommended that I've tried has worked out in the end exactly as he predicted or posted elsewhere in someone else's predicament.

Try not to get too caught up in "tone" as it does not translate well in the typed word - if that's what offends you.

Poo poo his free advice all you like.

I know where I'm placing my bets...
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2025 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

I’m well versed in dealing with the Interweb’s trolls, condescending egos, negative thinkers, and narcissism. Normally I can simply ignore people like that. But this guy is obviously a pro at all of the above. LOL. I’m disappointed in myself for falling into his trap. If he chooses to continue to troll along, he’ll get no further response from me.

Do we make mistakes? You bet we do! That’s what true learning is all about. Are we open to constructive criticism? All day every day!

Much to the chagrin of alstrump and his ilk, we’re going to continue to have fun and post our videos here. Our stuff is all about having fun and learning by doing. Much like 99% of the people here on the forum. Unfortunately it’s that 1% that ruins community sites like this and keeps most legit VW enthusiasts from posting their opinions, findings and questions. Fun With VDubs will keep bringing fun, light-heartedness, and friendliness to the Samba!
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2025 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

Great! I look forward to seeing more videos...
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2025 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

Fun With VDubs wrote:


Do we make mistakes? You bet we do! That’s what true learning is all about. Are we open to constructive criticism? All day every day!


Well, what constitutes constructive criticism depends on what you are "constructing"

Alstrup may have misread the situation, but you need to keep your own goal in mind also.

If you guys were working with one of the engines He or I or a few others around here..... spent over 20 years perfecting, then almost every change you'd think of..... would make less power, and that would be interesting to a few people but......
That's the not the idea.
Who would even do that?

And the technology of a basic distributor peaked before the internet......but your not making the history channel, so go ahead and test the latest chinese distributors


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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2025 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

Fun With VDubs wrote:
I’m well versed in dealing with the Interweb’s trolls, condescending egos, negative thinkers, and narcissism. Normally I can simply ignore people like that. But this guy is obviously a pro at all of the above. LOL. I’m disappointed in myself for falling into his trap. If he chooses to continue to troll along, he’ll get no further response from me.

Do we make mistakes? You bet we do! That’s what true learning is all about. Are we open to constructive criticism? All day every day!

Much to the chagrin of alstrump and his ilk, we’re going to continue to have fun and post our videos here. Our stuff is all about having fun and learning by doing. Much like 99% of the people here on the forum. Unfortunately it’s that 1% that ruins community sites like this and keeps most legit VW enthusiasts from posting their opinions, findings and questions. Fun With VDubs will keep bringing fun, light-heartedness, and friendliness to the Samba!


The only trap you fell into is your closed mind. butt hurt ignorance usually gets folks all defensive especially when they have no reasonable argument. For those who forget what it is to be humble getting truthful advice really stings the ego.

The fact you are promoting your business and making money off various sources any data you present must be taken with a grain of salt. Fun and lightheartedness have its place and spur out of the box thinking but when doing back to back tests logical progression and scientific processes should be the main concern. Some shops open their mouths and spew 'data' from decades of work just to show the world how limited their knowledge is. Because of their arrogance they do not adopt upgraded methods or realize part quality of today is poor compared to genuine german cores. Do their engines run? Yup. Do they last or run well? usually not.

Its responses like yours that caused those like Raby to stop sharing real data. Hoping Torben remains tolerant of the few with fragile feelings and continues to help the evolution of our community and realizes he is appreciated for all his selfless contributions.

Personally Ive tried to help share info with no secret motive. I felt a responsibility once I saw things from behind the parts counter how many lies were used in sales. The model was not to worry about that customer as there were millions of others that needed parts and most dont know any better. That doesnt work with todays market, the community is small and vendors are easily caught in lies and the customer is well educated. Being able to BS the customer is a thing of the past, except for those who choose not to educate themselves.

The more I learn the less I know, in other words the more you learn the more open your mind should become. When your knowledge is 'good enough' it isnt and you basically just shut the door on growing.
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2025 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

The more I learn the less I know, in other words the more you learn the more open your mind should become. When your knowledge is 'good enough' it isnt and you basically just shut the door on growing.[/quote]
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

Alstrup is from Denmark. Northern Europeans are blunt but not rude, they get things done without needing to pander to peoples feelings. Swedes are "worse"... or better depending if you thin skinned or not.

This series is good IMO because they bolt shiny stuff on like a typical owner does with no clue as to the results after - now we know the "after".

I particularly enjoyed that the 100% sneered at fan housing turbo was about the best bolt on "upgrade" Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

The videos are fun. Most other VW content are shorts and I don’t have the time to keep clicking and scrolling.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

With the old 1600 engine being well toasted, we decided to start from scratch. Still at 1600cc and very budget friendly, our new engine will be considerable stronger than stock.
We're taking a big chance with installing an experimental camshaft that Adam had made many years ago. Way overkill for this engine, but we wanted to find out for ourselves. We'll see how big of a mistake it was when we go to tune it on the dyno. Laughing

We hope you have as much fun watching as we did filming it.



Link

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tobiism
Samba Member


Joined: January 21, 2004
Posts: 504
Location: Chandler AZ
tobiism is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2025 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out! Reply with quote

Fun With VDubs wrote:
I’m well versed in dealing with the Interweb’s trolls, condescending egos, negative thinkers, and narcissism. Normally I can simply ignore people like that. But this guy is obviously a pro at all of the above. LOL. I’m disappointed in myself for falling into his trap. If he chooses to continue to troll along, he’ll get no further response from me.

Do we make mistakes? You bet we do! That’s what true learning is all about. Are we open to constructive criticism? All day every day!

Much to the chagrin of alstrump and his ilk, we’re going to continue to have fun and post our videos here. Our stuff is all about having fun and learning by doing. Much like 99% of the people here on the forum. Unfortunately it’s that 1% that ruins community sites like this and keeps most legit VW enthusiasts from posting their opinions, findings and questions. Fun With VDubs will keep bringing fun, light-heartedness, and friendliness to the Samba!



You're disregarding one of the most knowledgable people here(whom I've learned a ton from over the years) and then you cant even type his name correctly? You should be trying to learn from him. Not getting butthurt because he's pointing out what you've done wrong(and more importantly how you can improve). Goodness gracious you need to learn humility. Did you expect everyone here to just kiss your ass because you've made these video's?
_________________
"There has never been a genius without a hint of madness."
-Albert Einstein


Last edited by tobiism on Mon Jun 02, 2025 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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