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Official Dual Carburetor How To Thread
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AlteWagen
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Official Dual Carburetor How To Thread Reply with quote

Official Dual Carburetor How To Thread

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So you’ve finally done it, taken the biggest step in improving the performance of your engine even after reading about all the horror stories related to the unreliability of dual carb setups. Every day I see new threads on troubleshooting problems with new carb installations so I thought I would write up a basic how to guide to help get you started and your ride on the road.

Engine Health

This is the most important part of your carb installation. If there are ANY problems with your engine the dual carbs will usually accentuate them and run like crap! The following items MUST be addressed prior to installation of the new carburetors so that you eliminate any issues that may resemble carb problems when the vehicle is running.

First thing to do is perform a valve adjustment. Next is a compression test. All numbers must be within 10% of each other and preferably above 100psi. If the numbers vary beyond the acceptable limit a leak down test will tell you where the problem is (rings or valves). There is no reason to continue if the engine is worn out.


Tune Up

This includes an oil change, replacing points, condenser, plugs, wires, cap and rotor. Timing is CRUCIAL in regards to engine life and performance. Insuring that dwell is set correctly is VERY important. The most common method is the use of a feeler gauge but due to the quality of points on the market today verifying the angle with a dwell meter is mandatory. Be sure to lube the point cam lobes with appropriate grease to keep wear to a minimum. These days it is popular to install electronic point replacement modules to eliminate the necessary routine point adjustment. The only recommendation is to stay away from the cheap Chinese stuff as they do not tolerate the high engine compartment temps well and will leave you stranded. Installing a quality degree pulley and obtaining a timing light (strobe) to verify the timing is within specification is well worth the cost.

There are a few common types of distributors that must be identified before timing is adjusted. See the listing here for additional information. Not 100% accurate but pretty good.

http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm

-Single vacuum advance distributors are identified by a short body and a large vacuum can, there is now a tall body Chinese version of this SVA being sold by EMPI, this distributor is best used with a stock PICT 30 carb.

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Mechanical only advance distributors have taller bodies and no vacuum can, these include Bosch 010, 019, 009, 094 and the now various clone 009 copies. The use of mechanical only distributors is sometimes mandatory especially if your carbs do not have a vacuum port (Early IDFs, IDA).

010
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019
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009
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-Single vacuum dual advance (SVDA) which was the stock distributor for the PICT 34 carb is now being used quite a bit these days and is identified by its tall body and small advance can. This distributor is basically a 009 with a secondary vacuum advance that will pull additional timing when cruising at part throttle/light load.

SVDA
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The dual vacuum dual advance is a tall body large/fat vacuum can used in emission controlled/FI vehicles.

DVDA
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Timing the mechanical only distributors is basically the same even though each has its own timing curve and amount of total timing. Bring engine RPM up to 3000-3500 and set TOTAL timing to 28-30 degrees, when the engine falls back to idle speed the timing should be anywhere from 5-12 degrees. Timing the SVDA is the same but you disconnect the vacuum line and plug the vacuum port on the carburetor. Once timed to specification reconnect the vacuum hose. The vacuum can will pull an additional 8-12* of timing at part throttle based on engine load. The SVA is the easiest and is set at 0* static and should pull 32-35 @ 3.2 in of vacuum. If using an old distributor make sure to add a few drops of oil to the felt pad under the rotor.


Exhaust

Due to the vast array of systems out there and the varied applications it is a topic all its own. There are a few basic things to consider. Exhaust sizing is just as important as carb sizing. An exhaust system too big or too small will be difficult to tune and leave you with less than optimum output which you may think is a carb problem. Exhaust leaks can also be an issue. If the system is not sealing correctly you can experience a lean condition which is NOT good for the engine. It doesn’t matter if it is a stock muffler with heater boxes or a performance tuned header IT MUST BE LEAK FREE.


Carburetors

Now let’s get to the carbs themselves. Regardless if you are getting brand new carbs out of the box or swap meet specials, you HAVE TO CLEAN THEM AND SET FLOAT LEVELS at the very least. Carb jetting is also an area that one could write volumes about. At the very basic level jetting is usually based on the venturi size but different engine combinations will require different jets. Remember, just because the carbs worked well on your friends engine doesn’t mean they will work good on yours. The best method of achieving correct jetting for your application is to use a wideband gas analyzer but the old fashion way of reading plugs can at least tell you if you are lean or rich. Todays fuels make reading plugs more difficult so a wideband should be considered for getting the best performance and mileage out of your carbs. One mistake often made is assuming that the number on the jet itself is the actual size. Even new jets may not be what they are marked so I HIGHLY recommend using a jet gauge to verify jet sizes.

Carburetor Types must be mentioned as they have different characteristics that may be mistaken for problems. Dual single barrel carbs (Dellorto FRD, Weber ICT, Solex 40/44 EIS, PDSIT) are a plenum design where as one venturi is shared between two cylinders. Early Porsche 356, Type III and late Type II utilized this design with good results. These carbs are known for their rough idle characteristics caused by the engine firing order which some mistake as a carb problem. A balance tube run between the manifolds was used by the factory and helps smooth out the idle and help cover up any carb sync issues.

FRD
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ICT
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Solex 40/44
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PDSIT
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Individual runner carbs have one venturi per cylinder (Dellorto DRLA, Weber IDF/IDA/DCNF, and the various China clones).

DRLA
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IDF
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IDA
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DCNF
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Most have heard of the clogged idle jet problem synonymous with dual carbs and have heard the cars “popping” at idle as they cruise through the parking lot or show. There are various ways to address this problem but keeping the carbs/fuel/air clean is the best approach. Quality clean oiled/greased air filters with cast aluminum bases, clean fuel filters, and making sure the inlet filters are present in the carbs themselves is huge help. Installing tall main jet stacks and jet doctors for the idle circuit have pretty much eliminated the problem of clogged idle jets and are well worth the cost.

DRLA jet doctor
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IDF jet doctor
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The only upgrade not recommended is the “update kit” which eliminates the stock auxiliary vent and replaces it with a tube with holes to discharge the fuel from the main circuit. The update kit is difficult to tune and not worth the cost.

Vacuum leaks are the number one cause of poor running engines when installing dual carbs as there are more places to leak compared to the stock setup. Using carb cleaner or unlit propane around potential leak areas will help you identify a problem. If the idle speed changes as you add flammable material to a specific area you have found your leak. One mistake made by many is using/reusing the stamped steel manifold to head gasket. Using a thick material gasket helps insure any variations in the head or manifold sealing surfaces will not leak causing a lean condition which can damage your engine. A quality carb to manifold gasket is also a must. Loose or worn throttle shaft bores are also a common area where leaks occur. The dual single carbs are more likely to leak as the shafts are supported by the carb body itself or a bushing that wears over time where as the IR carbs use a bearing to support the shaft and are less likely to leak. Bearings do wear and high mileage carbs can leak as bad as worn bushings.

ALWAYS CHECK FOR LATERAL SHAFT PLAY WHEN BUYING USED CARBS!!


Clean Fuel

Before installing your new carbs be sure to replace any soft lines and flush the entire system. A quality fuel filter is also required. One thing that is often overlooked is the small filter inside the gas tank itself. Replace or clean the small filter and if a fuel tap is present ensure its clean too.


Fuel Pressure

Fuel pressure is also a problem area that needs to be addressed. Most carbs need 2-3 psi max and any more will overwhelm the needle valve causing overly high float bowl levels. High fuel levels will cause raw fuel to enter the runner un metered and can cause a variety of problems. Poor mileage, fuel washing the cylinder, oil contamination, hydro lock and rough idle are just a few things one might encounter. Many new mechanical pumps put out as much as 7 psi which any needle valve will have problems with. Adding gaskets under the pump will lower the pressure but if you add too many high rpm output may become an issue. Electric pumps also put out more pressure than needed even if they say they only put out 2-5 psi. A quality fuel pressure regulator is MANDATORY when running duals so factor that into the total cost of the upgrade. A fuel pressure gauge will verify the pressure and is a handy tool to help troubleshoot problems.

DO NOT USE THE DIAL TYPE REGULATOR!!! The EMPI and Mr Gasket type are known to leak and are fire risks BEWARE!!!

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Linkage

Linkage is the second most common problem area when running duals. Poor quality linkage will result in a poor synchronized carbs which in turn will make a poor running engine. Unsynchronized carbs will display many different symptoms such as inability to idle, flat spots, hesitation, backfiring, surging, high engine temps, excessive fuel consumption etc.

There are a few different linkage types out there that range in price and quality. Everyone has their own favorite so I will leave that up to you, DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

Two basic types are used, cross bar and center mount.
The most common cross bar types are CB Hex bar, Empi Hex bar and Berg linkage. There are of course other cross bar types out there but are not recommended (Tyco or any of the plastic hex bar types). Due to the floating hex bar design engine expansion is not an issue but worn or sloppy ball/socket ends will make you pull your hair out if not addressed. The Empi linkage uses a plastic bushing that wears quickly and currently there are no replacement pieces available off the shelf. One common fix to both the CB and Empi linkage is to machine the ball to a cylinder shape and use a quality bushing for more surface area and thus longer life and accuracy. Berg linkage mounts to the fan shroud and is a real PITA to set up initially but again once dialed in you don’t have to mess with it again.

CB Hex Bar
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Berg
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The most common center mount set ups are Scat Universal and CSP. Again there are a few other manufacturers out there with similar designs (Bugpack, FastFab, empi) but to keep things simple I will limit the discussion to the Scat and CSP units. The main difference between these two is their ability to compensate for engine expansion once the engine is up to operating temperature. The Scat linkage uses one common arm to connect each carb where as the CSP has one arm per carb. When one arm is used to control both carbs once the engine expands the linkage is unable to compensate for the minute change in width. Because of this if you sync your carbs with the engine cold once warm the sync will be off a bit. You can actually measure the difference with a feeler gauge and though minute can make a difference in how the vehicle runs. This can be overcome by simply syncing the carbs with the engine up to operating temps which is where it is most important. CSP linkage has two arms which are 180 apart and is able to compensate for engine expansion more easily thus is a bit easier to set up.

Scat Universal
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CSP
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Synchronization

Synchronization of the carburetors is of utmost importance. There are a several different methods to accomplish this such as using a feeler gauge between the butterfly and throat (bench set), closing the butterflies completely attaching the linkage and allowing one idle speed screw to set the speed for both carbs, using a vacuum gauge and tuning for highest vacuum, mercury manometers if your carbs have the port and the good old fashion snail or unisyn.

Plenum based systems seem to be the easiest to tune. The crossover tube and plenum are pretty forgiving, all you have to make sure of is that the butterflies open and reach full throttle at the same time.

For the IR carbs start by starting the engine and allow it to reach operating temperature. With the linkage disconnected verify that both barrels on the same carb are flowing the same amount of air. Sometimes it is necessary to adjust the air bypass screw especially if they are used sets but also make sure there are no bent throttle shafts or butterflies that might be causing the discrepancy. Once the barrels on the same carb are even you can then sync carbs side to side. Depending on the cam your idle RPM will vary, for stock/mild cams idle RPM is usually around 800-1000. Adjust the idle speed screws so that you achieve the idle rpm you want and both carbs are reading the same on your flow meter. Adjust for Best Lean Idle on the idle mixture screws and readjust idle speed and re sync as needed. You may have to perform these last few steps several times to get it perfect, the more time you spend here the more efficient your engine will run and provide better performance and mpg.

Once you are satisfied with the sync of the carbs you are now ready to connect the linkage. You may be wondering why it is recommended that the sync is performed with linkage disconnected. With the linkage off you can eliminate any possibility of interference of the carb sync due to worn parts, incorrect installation, binding issues, heavy return springs etc. Ive seen many adjust with linkage attached and it works but as parts wear or loosen up sync is off and you have to mess with it again in a short amount of time. By isolating the carburetor synchronization from the linkage adjustment you can more easily troubleshoot if problems arise.

Adjust the linkage so that both carbs are opening at the same time by adjusting the threaded rods between the heim joints. One think most people forget at this point is to make sure you are getting full throttle when depressing the gas pedal. If you are not getting full throttle there is a bit of adjustment in the threaded links that will get you there most of the time.


There are a few things to mention in regard to linkage and manifolds. Application will sometimes limit what you can use. For instance type III is forced to use super short manifolds and small filters, Karmann Ghia also require short manifolds when using tall filters or can use tall manifolds with short filters. Some baja headers limit manifold height as well. For type I the two main types of IR manifolds are “straight” and “off set”. If using 36hp type shroud both types can be used, but if using a stock type shroud with heater ducts you must use the off set type manifold or “clearance” the shroud as necessary. The manifold used will dictate the location of the carb so the appropriate linkage must also be used.

Off set Manifold
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Straight Manifold
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Air Filtration

As mentioned earlier clean air is one of the key aspects in having trouble free duals. Quality cast aluminum air filter bases are a good start. Quality reusable gauze elements should also be used. Some of the cheaper imported elements will actually fall apart and the gauze material itself will clog the jets. Make sure to use the appropriate amount of air filter oil and clean them as required. If sever dust conditions are expected outerwear or foam pre filters help extend the life and cleanliness of the elements. Be sure to use grease where it makes contact with the base and top to be sure to seal any leaks that may be present. One last thing is to ensure the sealing washers are in place under the wing nuts, every little bit helps.

This is a quick generalization of what you have to go through when properly setting up your dual carbs. Different applications will require more specialty tuning and equipment.

I recommend other users add to this thread any thing that will make setting up duals easier for the newbie.

I will add one more suggestion, the Dellorto Superformance Book is a necessity for anyone with dual carbs. It has a wealth of information on theory and tuning that will help anyone dial in the carbs and make your ride sing like never before!!!

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Most images were taken from the gallery, if you are the owner and want me to remove them just let me know.

THANKS!!
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Bashr52
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont forget about the sync-link linkage! Looks great!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good thread, I agree with most of it . Although the main thing I disagree with , is the use of the jet dr. It's air jet is larger than the factory Dell ,and changes the idle and part throttle characteristics of the carb. Plus it's just a bandaid fix for poor filtration .
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Good thread, I agree with most of it . Although the main thing I disagree with , is the use of the jet dr. It's air jet is larger than the factory Dell ,and changes the idle and part throttle characteristics of the carb. Plus it's just a bandaid fix for poor filtration .


Thanks for the input! I also agree that filtration is the key.

Is the issue just for the Dellorto? The Weber version just looks like extension tubes that bring the inlet above any dirt that may get in.

For the Dellorto what exactly is changed? Jetting cannot fix the "issues".



Bashr, do you have the SyncLink on your ride? If so how is the setup and do you like it?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have SyncLink on my car with 40 Dells and the accelerator cable is smooth as butter. There isn't a better linkage out there.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

on that pic that says I need this plug for a vac signal...well I dont think you want to put it there.if memory serves mo correct that is the axsess port for drillin the progression holes.dont fuck with that portion.or I may be rong again.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark tucker wrote:
on that pic that says I need this plug for a vac signal...well I dont think you want to put it there.if memory serves mo correct that is the axsess port for drillin the progression holes.dont fuck with that portion.or I may be rong again.


Sorry, that pic is from the gallery and Im sure is in a thread somewhere. For this thread it is just used to identify the DCNF. As I get better pics I will update them to reduce confusion.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the weber jet dr. Works just fine, it still retains the factory air jet. You can jet out of some of the problems with the dell jet dr. But I still think idle quality suffers. One thing to remember, if your plugging idle jets. That is coming from the bowl .
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good info! Have one more question for you. Ive noticed with the E10 gas the rubber o rings in both my Dells and Webers seem to break down a lot quicker these days. What do you use or suggest as a replacement?

For me that is the only thing that has been clogging the jets in my dells. It was driving me mad at first then I noticed small black particles when cleaning the jets. When I finally took the carbs apart to thoroughly clean them I noticed the o rings were just falling apart.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great info!!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just saw this and had to add it

mharney wrote:
Here's a little writeup I have done on Webers. I am sure it applies to the HPMX carbs too.

Tuning Dual Weber Carbs on the VW Type 1 Engine

As many times as this topic comes up, I decided to try and come up with a document that should answer a lot of the common questions.

A lot of what I learned I have learned from John Connolly at Aircooled.net, so I am giving credit where credit is due.

The fact of tuning - you're going to be needing some different jet sizes. No way around it, if you want to get it right. Don't start howling at me about having to buy jets. It's just part of it and you have to be ok with that if you want to go to the trouble to tune things well. Jets are expensive, so if you know someone that has a stockpile of them to lend you, get them and start tuning away. If not, you'll end up with a few sets that you can probably sell off for close to what you have in them.


First things first. Clean the carbs and adjust the floats.

If you slack on this step, the rest will be meaningless and frustrating.


Venturi selection
There are different schools of thought on what vents to choose for your application. What you choose should reflect what you want to tune for.

For engines that rev pretty high (6000-7000 rpm), you are best off choosing vents that are about 2 to 4mm smaller than your intake valve size.

For engines that are set up for torque, like bus engines, and other torque-happy applications, you can go a little smaller on the vents and get better low end response. For these, I'd recommend 4 to 6mm smaller than your intake valve size.

So what happens if your vents are too big? You'll have reduced air-speed at low RPMs, which makes tuning harder. Air speed is one of the things that tells your different fuel circuits when to start to come on. It will be soggy down low.

So what happens if your vents are too small? The undersized vents will restrict your engine's ability to breathe at higher RPMs.

How critical is it? Not terribly, but if you're way off it will matter, and you will feel it. Putting 40 vents in a set of 44 IDFs with 40mm intake valves will be pretty soggy down low. Sticking with the 36's would be about right. Putting 28 vents into a set of 40 IDFs on an engine with 40mm intake valves will limit your top end noticeably as well.


Idle jetting
Once you've settled on your vents and your carbs are adjusted and cleaned up, you can choose your idle jet size. Idle jets are USUALLY 50-55 in size on most setups I have seen, though I have seen some engines that benefit from using a 57 idle jet. The rule is typically to multiply the vent size x 1.6 to arrive at your rough idle jet size, but what I've seen is that 50 to 55 is mainstream for about any 40 or 44 IDF. 55's will make sure you're not leaning out when you are tuning, so I start with those.

After installing your idle jets, you close the idle mixture screws and unscrew them all about the same amount, maybe about 1 to 1.5 turns out. Then, with your linkage disconnected, unscrew the idle speed screws (the ones the throttle arms rest on) until they are no longer touching the arms, and then turn them back until they are JUST touching. Now turn them in another half turn or so. Start the engine, and after you get it warmed up, see if it will idle ok. If not then turn each mixture screw out another turn. If it STILL will not idle well, then your idle jets could be too small. If it does idle ok, then go to each mixture screw one at a time and slowly turn it in (by slowly, turn it about 1/8 to 1/4 turn at a time and stop and wait for the response of the engine for a few seconds) until the engine begins to slow down (you'll be leaning out a cylinder). Now slowly back the screw back out (same method you used to screw it in) until that cylinder starts to pick up again and run smooth. Open the screw about 1/2 turn more. Move on to the next cylinder. Do this until you have done all 4 cylinders.

Now.. with all 4 cylinders set on mixture, get your synchrometer (Unisyns suck, get a snail), and your dwell meter/tach. Don't have one? Well, now it's time to get one, unless you have an ACCURATE tach in your instruments. Adjust the carbs to have the same flow, and have about the right RPM, which will vary, but about 800-900 is usually do-able on an engine that is not radical.

You're getting close now. Repeat the idle mixture procedure and when that is done, if your idle is right, you're done with the idle settings for now. If your idle is now off, go back to the synchrometer and idle speed screws.

So what do you do if two barrels on one of your carbs are not flowing the same? If it's only about half a point or less, don't sweat it. If it is more than that, your carbs need attention. That's another subject. Some people recommend using the air bypass screws to adjust it, but if it's more than a half point off, it will cause problems that the air bypass can't account for. They need to be FIXED if this is the case. I never use the air bypass screws.


Main jetting
Now with the idle jetting done, main jets are next in line. Assuming F11 emulsion tubes, your starting point for main jets is about 4.1 to 4.3 x the vent size. So for a 36 vent, your main jet should be roughly 145 to 155 to start. 150's a good choice to start with unless you're feeling lucky, in which case you can start with a 145. With a 145-150 main jet, you'll be pretty close with a 36 vent. Similar rules work for smaller and larger vents, though once you get past 40mm vents, the rules don't seem to apply so well.


Air jetting
Air jets are more empirical, but a good starting point for them is about 200 if you have 145 mains. If your mains are considerably smaller, like 135 or 115 or something, a 160 to 180 air jet is a better place to start. Start there and don't mess with them until you know the other jets are right.


Synchronization
This is a topic that does not get enough attention. Synchronization is EVERYTHING after the jetting is done. Synchronization will such a difference in the way it runs you just can't believe it when they are right. Unfortunately all the linkage that is out there has certain characteristics that keep your synchronization from being perfect all the time, so all you can do is get it close and keep after it every once in a while.

The biggest problem with synchronization is keeping the geometry correct. This is hard to understand without illustrations of why, but if you just trust that it's important, you can avoid all the rest.

Crossbar linkage: How to ensure that your downrods have the right geometry

With your downrods, if you can position the crossbar arms so that your downrods are vertical (left to right), that will help matters, and complicate the situation less. Once you have achieved that, you can work on making sure that they are both at the same angle (leaning from front to back of the car). Use an angle finder, and read what the rods are, and use washers to get them the same. There shouldn't be a lot of difference to start with, if you have the right linkage for your setup. Different intake manifold types (offset versus straight) will use different linkage setups. If your crossbar is sitting at an angle with respect to your fanshroud, you have the wrong linkage.

Once your downrods are at the same angle side for side, then your synchronization will be easier, because the throttles should now be offsetting the same amount on each side throughout the full range.

Now, to synch your carbs, loosen the nuts on one downrod, and use the rod's opposed threads to set the carbs so they are opening at the same time. Be careful when doing this (I do it with the engine off) so that you don't open them a lot too many times.. you'll dump a bunch of fuel into the engine if you do. When you test, make sure that you are using the point where the cable connects to the throttle arm in the middle of the crossbar. If you twist at one of the outer arms, you will not get accurate results. Just push on the arm at the point where the cable meets it, so that you are applying the same force that the cable does when it pulls. If you put your hand on the crossbar and twist it using your thumb or something on the middle arm, you are still applying a force that the crossbar will not experience under normal conditions.

Watch the throttles, and compare what both sides are doing. They should be opening at the same exact moment. Realize that as the engine warms up the geometry changes slightly so there may be some difference between hot and cold engine. I like to warm mine up before I do this. After you get them synched right, tighten down the nuts so that both the heim joints are centered to their positions. I rotate the joints so that they are both resting against the position they would be pulled to when you tighten the nuts, and then I tighten them. Be sure to not let the rod twist when you position or tighten them. You may find that tightening the nuts changes the geometry slightly, so you may have to compensate a little bit for this on the rod.

After you get the nuts tight, check it again, and repeat if necessary.

Why this matters so much: Once you get them synched perfect, you will FEEL how much better it runs, especially on low throttle lower RPM. If you have a head temperature gauge, you will see that when the linkage is not right, one side will run warmer than the other. If the left side throttle opens first, the left side will run warmer, especially at low throttle low RPMs.

The last thing you should do if you have never done it: Loosen the throttle cable from the center arm and have someone push the gas pedal to the floor. Pull the cable tight, and then snug the connector. This will ensure that you do not put undue stress on the throttle shafts on the carbs at full throttle. If you put too much pressure on them you can twist the throttle shafts too much and bend them. This is especially true of setups that have the return spring and stop on the FRONT of one of the carbs, which is the way most Weber setups are out of the box. I use the CB Weblink kit to put the springs both on the throttle linkage side, to help with synchronization.

This with some practice and a good feel for what you are doing will help a lot with making sure your engine runs smooth.


Drive it
Something you should understand about tuning from this point. Your accelerator pumps are going to try to fool you unless you understand their purpose and function.

Accelerator pumps are there to compensate for some physics. The fact is that fuel is heavier than air, and it takes longer for the fuel to pick up speed in the circuits than it does for the air to pick up speed in the throats. So when you stomp the gas, the air starts moving faster a lot sooner than the fuel does. The accelerator pumps are there to provide a little extra fuel during that short time it takes for the fuel to catch up. Keep this in mind when you are tuning the jets, and avoid rapid pedal movements for now.

It really helps to have a tach, and an air fuel gauge, and I would say that a tach is next to necessary, while an air fuel gauge is a luxury that you can do without unless you are FINE tuning, and going for near perfect in terms of mileage and power.

Take the car out and drive it. Pay attention to what's going on at about 1500 to 2000 RPM, and at 2000 to 3000 RPM, and from 3000 to 4000 RPM.

1500 to 2000 RPM is almost purely idle jets in action. Keep the pedal steady here, in 3rd gear so you can see what it does with a slight load. If this area is running ok, move on. If it feels weak or soggy, you might need different idle jets. Unfortunately, it's sometimes hard to tell if it's rich or lean unless you are experienced here. This is where an air fuel meter will help you out. What you can try is opening up your mixture screws about half turn and see if it feels better. If it doesn't, then it might be too rich. If it does, then your idle jets may be too lean. For those of you with air-fuel gauges, about 14:1 +/- 0.3 or so is what I like. Move on to the next range.

2000 to 3000 RPM is the "transition" stage. This is the part where the main jets start to take over. Your idle jets start to matter less here, and your main jets are the progressively deciding factor for why your engine is running the way it is. With the pedal steady, make note of how it feels in here, and move on.

3000 to 4000 RPM is where your main jets are really doing their job, and your air jets aren't really affecting things much yet. With the pedal steady, if it feels lean here, (sort of like it is running out of fuel) then you might want to try going up a main jet size. If not, try going down one and see how it runs. Go down until it starts to feel lean (weaker with maybe some popping). When you feel it go lean, move back up a size and you are done with the mains. For those of you with air-fuel gauges, about 13.5 +/- 0.3 or so is what I like.

Now, back to the transition stage. If it felt lean there before you did anything, and the main circuit felt lean, determine of moving the main jet up helped the transition stage. When the idles and mains are both right, the transition should be pretty good too. If your mains and your idles feel good, but your transition does not, try going on one size on the main jet and see if that helps. If not, then go up one size on the idle and see. By now you should have it cleaned up. If you STILL have problems with transition, then it's likely that your floats are wrong. You can subtract about a millimeter at a time to richen up transition, if you need to. I find it rare for transition to be too rich, especially with your floats close to right and your jets close to right. For those of you with air-fuel gauges, if you get the points right at the low and high rpm, this stage should fall into place. If it doesn't, then you may need to adjust your float levels a little. About a mm at a time will do plenty to change the numbers here. You should start close to 10-11mm on the float levels. I would say if you have to go to a float setting that is less than 10mm you might need to go up on one jet or the other. Your transition stage should be in the 13.5 to 14 area. You may have to fudge a little on the idle or main circuit to get transition close to that if you can't get it with a float level as small as 10mm.


Air jets
These are a little easier when you have the rest done and set up right. Usually about 60 or so larger than your final jet size is close. If you find that the higher RPMs are leaning out, you need to go DOWN about 15-20 on your air jet and try it again. Same rule for soggy, go UP a about 15-20 on air jets to see if that cleans it up. Air jets meter AIR, not fuel, so that's why it's backwards from idles and mains.


Accelerator pump settings
Once everything else feels right at steady state, then you can start playing with the accelerator pumps. While there are different pump jets and bypass valves, you can usually get what you need out of the ones that come on the carbs out of the box. First, make sure that they are adjusted the same. Drive it, and see what happens when you give it gas more quickly. If when you are in second or third gear, and you push the pedal from cruise to WOT over the course of about a half second, and it bogs, try unscrewing each accelerator pump nut about 3 turns and try it again. If it's worse, then they were too lean, and you should go back the other way. Try 3 turns at a time until they are right. You shouldn't need more than about 1/2" of rod sticking out of the nut. If you do, you might have some timing issues you need to deal with. For those of you with an air-fuel meter, your meter's response to mashing the pedal should be as close to steady as possible, but that's not realistic to expect. If your engine falls on its face, and the meter goes lean, screw the nuts in about three turns on each side, and try again. Same rules for if it goes rich for any period of time, like two seconds or so. What I like to do is back off the screws until it falls on its face, and then start screwing them back in until it doesn't anymore. Too much fuel from the accelerator pumps is going to cause the excess fuel to wash oil off the cylinders, and cause you poor mileage.


What kind of mileage should you expect? Depends on how you drive. If you drive it like you're sick of the high gas prices you should get close to 20 if everything is right, maybe even more. I get about 25. You can get very good mileage if you lean things out close to 14 across the board, reduce your accelerator pump action to the very minimum, with just a hint of hesitation when you punch it, and use a vacuum advance distributor (SVDA) with the ports on the carbs (many have vacuum ports you can attach to a T fitting and then to an SVDA distributor that is tuned right for use with dual carbs. Not all cam/head setups are going to work well with an SVDA distributor, but many will do fine.

If you drive with a heavy foot, then face facts. Your mileage is going to suck.

Hope this helps you.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDF/HPMX float level settings. The only thing I would recommend would be to check the floats setting by having the range of motion of the float like the hinge of a door (the float being the door) so that the weight of the float itself does not compress the spring of the needle valve.

Im not sure what the numbers refer to in the written directions as they do not match the exploded view diagram earlier in the book, sorry for any confusion.

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edit: added 2nd float diagram
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phhh, silly manual. It isn't necessary to remove the gasket to check the float level, and calipers are not handy to use at all, better to use a doo-dad of the right size, say for example if you want 11mm then use 7/16 rod (11.1mm),
want 10mm then how bout a bolt with 10mm head?? easy

This is the REAL weber manual, which BTW, this may be good to have archived here....in case, not that I know if that would be possible or how.

it says check with or without gasket, with "some kinda measuring rod', and check float weight too, or just check the fuel level" well, something like that Wink

http://www.webercarburatori.com/?p=handbook&s=1
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great link!

Here are some of the exploded diagrams

40 IDF

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44 IDF

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48 IDA

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Emulsion tube info

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edit: add e tube info
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some Dellorto DRLA reference sheets

36 DRLA

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40 DRLA

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Tuning parts

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DRLA float setting

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Common issue with these carbs is the "Dell Drip". The lead plug separating the idle and main circuit starts to leak and the float bowl will drain out of the progression holes.

modok wrote:

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The plug in it's natural habitat!


Removal and replacement of the plug is required to fix the problem. Various methods are used and discussed in the thread below

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=407809

Some emulsion tube data from Modoc. THANKS!!

modok wrote:
Dude, that stuff in CB's manual is COMPLETE BS, plagiarized from another manual, and it doesen't have anything to do with DRLA emulsion tubes Laughing

Only difference is the top hole, solder it closed to turn into #2

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edit: add drip info
edit: add e tube info
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solex 40/44 EIS (Kadron) exploded view

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Float level setting:

If using factory thin paper gasket use one thin copper washer under needle valve

If using aftermarket thick cardboard gasket use BOTH thick and thin copper washer supplied in rebuild kit.

A few other notes on getting these to run right.

If you cant get the idle mixture to respond make sure you have the correct Solex EIS/EDIS idle mixture screw.

The two on the left are EIS/EDIS mixture screws, the one on the right is a regular PICT type screw which come in universal rebuild kits. Notice the extended shoulder on the EIS/EDIS which is not present on the screw on the right which tapers immediately after the threads end. The EID/EDIS screw is NLA new, used screws are your only option.

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Problems with the emulsion tubes are also common on these carbs. If any water was in the carbs it usually plugs up the tube with "white shit" which requires the removal of the jet/tube to be cleaned properly.

Cracked tubes are also common which causes the tubes to drop off the jet and block the main circuit.

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Cracks on the bottom of the tube will allow the small plug at the base to fall out causing other tuning problems.

These parts are NLA and usually require a core carb for parts or replacement.

In some cases you can repair the tubes using solder if spares are not available.

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Thanks to VintageSpeed (vwtaiwan) for pics of the tubes.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=364481

Accelerator pump circuit.

Another common problem area with these carbs is the pump circuit.

-jet tip location
-check ball frozen or missing
-bowl check valve

The tip of the jet is very close to the venturi where the vacuum draws fuel from the circuit causing the "kad drip" making tuning difficult. To fix this remove jet by turning and lifting at the same time (its pressed in not threaded), anneal, and bend to re position tip above venturi opening.

Stock

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Modified

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Make sure the check ball is under the pump jet, most of the time its missing. There seem to be two sizes of check balls, early carbs use 2.35mm while replacements in the Radke kits for late model measure 3.15mm. YOU CANNOT USE THE LATE ONES IN AN EARLY BODY AS IT WILL BLOCK THE CIRCUIT!

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The last area to check is the bowl check valve. Thanks to bobna54oval for the info.

bobna54oval wrote:
One of my accelerator pumps wasn't working, the pump chamber wasn't getting gas from the float bowl. Inside the float bowl there is a brass plug in the passage (arrow) that is threaded.

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I made a tool to pull the plug from a small bolt, turned it down to size on the lathe and threaded it to the size in the plug. (M4X.75) Put a small pice of flat bar with a hole in it across the top of the bowl, thread the screw into the plug and it came out fairly easily. Under the plug is the little black plastic(?) valve, it was stuck in its bore and wouldn't let the fuel flow. I cleaned it all out good and got it moving freely, put it all back together and it works great again. I had soaked the carb in cleaner overnite, I am surprised the plastic didn't get eaten up. Second pic shows the plug, valve and the tool I made.

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You can also use the kadron accelerator pump rod to pull the plug as it is also the correct thread


Side note, Radke Services now sells replacement parts that were not available in the past, if your pump jet is broken or cracked, mangled pump rod or melted isolator now you can get a new replacement and save those old cores

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Throttle Shaft Bushings


Some GREAT info on TB bushing replacement! Late TBs made after 2010 already have the large 10mm bushing so drilling may not be necessary. In fact the bore is larger than the replacement bushing so other means are required for adequate press fit. Early TBs have the small ring bushing shown below and will need to be opened up.

This will work on most if not all Solex carbs with a 8mm throttle shaft.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662593


Vanapplebomb wrote:
Go to your local industrial supply (eg, granger, applied technologies, etc...) and order 5/16 id x 3/8 od x 1/2 inch long igus iglide T500 bearings. Chuck up the throttle shaft (originally 8mm) in a drill press or lath and lightly sand down the surface of the shaft to smooth it out.

5/16" is slightly smaller than 8mm, so it is a better fit on the old worn shaft, especially after sanding a few thou off the diameter. I found an 8mm id is too large most times on old Solex shafts. If need be you can always open up a 5/16" bearing to fit very nice. You can use a standard drill bit to drill the bore out for the new bearings. Just don't go too deep or you will have junk throttle bodies. Get the holes misaligned too much and the shaft will bind. It isn't too hard. I have done it on a few carbs. These are very good bearings. The cost a couple bucks a pop when you buy them individually, but they are better than bronze bushings.

For using anything other than the stock size bushings, you need to drill out the throttle body for new bearings.

About the size of the hole; igus has specs for press fit, etc. but for this, a 3/8 hole works well. The bearings are slightly oversized on the od for a nice press fit. Just be careful not to deform the soft aluminum throttle bore when installing them. Yes, they can be opened up once installed for a good fit. This is why I recommend 5/16in id bearings rather than 8mm. 5/16in is slightly smaller than 8mm, which gives you wiggle room to open stuff up if needed. Besides, I guarantee that those 8mm throttle shafts are not actually a full 8mm. 5/16in has been a very good fit in my experience with only one needing to be opened up slightly.

Between their dry run lubrication properties, PV rating, and much larger surface area, they will last a very long time.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: fuel pressure stories Reply with quote

Well, I came to this thread too late. On a 1600 that I use to run, I had no pressure regulator. Back then, I did not even bother to measure fuel pressure. One day, when the car was running really bad, I dropped a valve cover to do a valve job and gas/oil mixture poured out if it. Probably half a quart in all. Carb wash anyone?

On a more recent engine that I built for my son's Ghia, the pressure from a stock pump was indeed 7psi. I installed one of the EMPI regulators. Ten miles later, I get a call saying that the parking lot under his Ghia is awash with fuel. Sure enough, all my fittings were intact, but fuel was pouring out of that center hole of the regulator.

So two questions:
1. If the same needle valve is used in, say, the 34PICT-3 as in Kadrons and PDSITs, why is 5psi ok in one and 2psi needed in the other?

2. What brand is an alternative to the EMPI regulator?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive found that the old original solex needle valves are more tolerant to higher pressures while the new valves that come in rebuild kits can only handle 3 or less psi.


As far as regulators I only use Holley on my cars. Kind of a PITA to set up for pressures that low but once done you dont have to worry about it again.

http://www.amazon.com/Holley-12-804-Fuel-Pressure-...lator+blue
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the fuel pump is putting out over 5 PSI then it is not working right, rebuild or replace with one that works right. I recall the pumps putting out about 4 PSI. The fuel pump IS a regulator, you don't need two regulators nor two fuel pumps, but guys do that Shocked

One drawback of any engine mounted fuel pump is the tendency to heat the fuel and cause "vapor lock" type problems, if not when running then often flooding the carbs with heat soak after shutoff. The pump has one-way valves so fuel cannot return to the tank, so it overpowers the needle and seat and goes into the carb, which is bad for the environment and your fuel economy, and stinks up your garage. The way around this is a "dump type" regulator that allows to the fuel to return to the tank rather than end up trapped between the pump and carb. Adding such a regulator (or even a return orifice, as used in some 70's cars) to a mechanical pump is possible...... but if a good fuel pump costs over 60$ then frankly it's more practical to use an electric fuel pump such as a carter rotary .........which does solve all three problems at once. Correct pressure, allows fuel back to the tank, and cannot vapor lock.

The fact that pump gas is often now as much as 20% highly volatile stuff toluene/xylene ect.... means that old style fuel pumps that worked fine back when gasoline was made of gasoline may have problems now, even if they are in perfect working order........ oh well, times change
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not seen any Brosol replacement pumps that put out less than 7psi in the last 5 years. For mechanical pumps I do not use a regulator but as mentioned above add gaskets under the pump to lower pressure. Some like to grind down the rod which does the same thing. I agree there are problems with the pumps from the factory.

I only use electric pumps for dual carbs on my vehicles. The carter pump mentioned is great but on my bus I still have an old Faucet pump that is 22 years old. I have a carter waiting in the wings to replace it but this thing just keeps on going!

this one works great on Dells and Webers but puts out too much for kduds

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRT-P60504/
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