steering wheel shake

[oprn]

Dealing with this issue with my Buddy's Buggy right now too. The shake is conveniently right between 55 and 65 mph. It's not a tire runout issue as the tires run true either side of that speed. It's not a tire balance problem either as that would have the tires bouncing up and down and they don't. The tires actually move laterally when the shake happens.

As far as steering system wear, he has spent a bundle at the alignment shop and having driven it myself now, that is the tightest steering system I have experienced in many years. Certainly tighter than mine and mine doesn't shake at all.

The steering damper looks new... but we know how that goes these days, I have a couple good used ones I can try.

The next thing I am going to try is a set of stock VW rims and tires to eliminate the wheel adapter/Chevy wheel offset. See if that changes it
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Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[Brucifer33]

I'll be interested to hear what you find. Just back from another test drive after the steering box adjustment and the shake is still there with another clue. The shake goes away periodically and it seemed to link to long bends in the road that would move the tires in and out of sync. Traffic and 50MPH posted speed made it hard to be absolutely certain, but I did get it to repeat a couple of times.

Freshly paved road eliminates anything road related. Suspension, steering box, alignment and frame all having been checked and double checked leaves tires, especially with the shake coming and going.

Next plan is to go for more accuracy in measuring the lateral run out on all 4 tires. Have to make something up to go on the end of the dial indicator so the tip doesn't catch in the tire tread.

1/8" toe I set it to added to high speed stability, plus realized when I put the first shims in I forgot doing that had changed the toe in. Other than the shake I'm getting close to being able to relax while driving at highway speeds and not need to have the death grip on the steering wheel.

[Brucifer33]

Things are getting more interesting, found the link below online about balance beads.
Part of the story is any lateral run out may cause the beads to accentuate the shake, another is beads are not advised in tires with an aspect ratio 65 or below. My front tires are 195/60r14. Whole story at this link.
https://innovativebalancing.com/LowProfileTires.pdf
I also set up my dial indicator to measure radial and lateral tire run out, lateral was .035 on one tire. I marked the location and cut 2 washer out of .010 aluminum and installed them on the appropriate brake drum studs to alter the wheel run out. Only had a short drive so far but did note some improvement.

Stopped at 2 tire shops to see if they could balance the wide 5 wheels and was told no. Had a suggestion of 2 old school shops to check with. Also have info that the tires can be balanced with the beads still in the tire with certain machines that don't spin the tire up too fast. Can share the info if anyone is interested.

[Dale M.]

Maybe you are going in wrong direction, what is body doing, how is steering column anchored in body, is there lateral bracing behind dash to secures steering column to tub and justy not the dash?
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“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[isucorvair]

I just corrected most of the "wobble" in the front of my Manx (on 1962 pan).


The passenger hub had tapered roller bearings.
The drivers hub had original style ball bearings inner and outer.

I replaced the drivers hub bearings with a new set of tapered rollers, and 99% of my shimmy and shake went away! Upon close inspection of the bearings, they had wear. No noise, no looseness could be felt when shaking the drum/wheel/hub.


Eric

[Brucifer33]

Dash is well made heavy fiberglass, possibly Manx replacement, was not attached to the hood when I bought it. Part of my restoration included fiberglassing the two together. Also added 1"x1/4" steel flat bar tying windshield frame bolts to body on both sides. Muffler u-bolt clamp with rubber spacer secures steering column to dash board, rubber grommet where it goes thru the body. Windshield and dash have minor shake the rubber doesn't stop the column from transmitting to the dash, so have eliminated the dash and windshield as the problem.

Logged 150 miles today including about 20 miles of interstate at 65 to 80mph. Touched 90 with power left but not the nerve. Would have never done that before the added caster angle bringing it to 5 degrees. Shake definitely comes and goes periodically that says to me both front wheels have lateral run out that comes in and out of sync with each other. The balance beads according to link I posted can contribute or possible cause the shake.

https://innovativebalancing.com/LowProfileTires.pdf

Have a bead breaker on order to remove half the beads to bring it to the 2oz level the link suggests. Will try that and if it doesn't help will remove all the beads and balance the tires.

Buggy did have ball bearing inner and outers when purchased that I changed to rollers. Also double checked the wheel bearing end play with dial indicator while I was checking tire run out, so all good there.

Thanks again for the suggestions, always appreciated.

[Brucifer33]

Removed the balance beads in the front tires and there was no change in the shake. Dynamic balancing to correct any side to side imbalances seems to be all that's left. Problem there is no one local who has the adapter for the wide 5 wheels.

Any suggestions other than buying the adapter? Anyone have one they would loan or rent?

[MrGoodtunes]

Balance adaptors for wide 5s began to dissappear during 1980s~90s around here, but we still have a tire shop that uses a circular tub of water; they place wheel in and then use a bubble level indicator. It's obviously just a static balance, but it has work'd pretty well for me.

Another thought:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1045413

[slalombuggy]

Universal adapters are available , you can configure the arms for any bolt pattern from 3-6 bolts and whatever bolt circle is required . 3 shops I worked at had them. They are easy to find on ebay and Amazon. You should be able to find a shop with one. They are commonly used for wheels that aren't hub centric.

[Brucifer33]

Have read on forums here the center opening on the wide 5 to ford/chevy bolts patterns aren't always concentric to the wheel. So had scratched that idea until just thinking I could check the opening easy enough by bolting it to a front drum and setting up my dial indicator to see if it runs true or not.

Have been focused on Hunter balance machines as they are common in the area and are the ones I know of that run road force and measure the lateral balance. Did find out the shaft on the Hunter machine would fit through the front brake drum to use that as an adapter, but opening is too small for the smallest centering cone to fit up.

Spoke with regional Hunter rep, said they don't even list anything for old VW wide 5's and he didn't know of any work arounds, Trusted him on that as he's not a newbie in the business either at 72.

Guess I'll check the wheel adapters I have, think I have maybe 6 and maybe I'll get lucky with one.

Otherwise will look for a loaner or a rental, last option is buy one or have a machinist friend make one for me.

[Brucifer33]

Hit myself on the head time here, just called a local VW buddy and he has access to an adapter he can pick up Monday. If the balancing doesn't fix the shake I think I may be heading to the Betty Ford clinic before long.

[Brucifer33]

The story has moved to being too long to even post everything. The adapter the friend had was an alloy wide 5 to ford or chevy pattern using lug bolts and nuts to bolt to my jackman wide 5 wheels. Way too much slop and no guarantee the opening would be centered including changes in bolting to a new location on the wheel.

I did experiment by jacking the buggy up to watch the rear wheels with engine running and transmission in gear and noted some side to side vibration. So I'm thinking this may be the source of the shake. May have to go back and check the rear drums and wheels for lateral run out but following a different path now since I can't feel any shake in the seats, floor pan or body.

Steering column and shaft are 60's vintage VW with the bearing behind the steering wheel that has a flanged shim that takes up the loose fit between shaft and bearing. Problem in part may be the shim isn't a snug fit that allows significant movement between shaft and column.

So I can't feel or see the shake anywhere other than the steering wheel that appears to shake the dashboard and windshield to a lesser degree. Best guess at this point is the loose steering shaft fit allows the steering shaft to act like a tuning fork responding the the rear end. Next change is to see what I can do to get a proper fit to hold the steering shaft to the bearing.

Longer story involves taking the front wheels to a shop with the Hunter balancer with Road Force that I was told is a $28,000 state of the art machine. Machine is nearly all touchscreen with more functions and options most using it are even aware of. So much for people who understand the mechanics of things. Machine wouldn't even read the wheel I had measured minimal run out on and then accepted the one that clearly has lateral run out that the machine is supposed to measure and compare differences in wheel and tire to then rotate each for best match up. That is if you know what to select on the touch screen any of numerous YT tutorials will explain. Good Bye mechanics, hello technicians.

[EVfun]

The upper steering column bearing should also have a spring pushing the bearing together. I’ve never found a problem there, and would only expect looseness not an active shake. I even drove a buggy with no steering column bearing once due to a broken column bracket (steering was 2 handed, but stable).

I’m increasingly thinking that the problem is with one of a few things tied to a pair of tires.

Either both front tires have some runout and the vibration comes and goes as the runout goes in and out of sync. The runout could also be in the rims. Runout in the rear tires could cause the same effect, since they don’t turn sometimes they transfer their effect to the other end.

Another possibility is wheel adapters if you are running them. They can have balance or wobble issues. (See above issues.)

I would also check out the front wheel bearings. If loose they can allow very slight, normally not felt, issues to become noticeable. The same issue could apply if your shocks are shot but I’ve run without front shocks before and it was only an issue when the front tires were out of balance.

A missing or shot steering damper can contribute to shaking issues too. The short wheel base contributes to the twitchyness, but I’ve never had big issues getting a Bug chassis to comfortably go down the road. Oh… have you checked the frame for staitness? Surely it’s not that.
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[Brucifer33]

EVfun, the spring was missing and replaced now, result was stronger steering wheel shake. Present wheels are Jackmans with wide 5 pattern that replaced steel chrome with adapters I thought were the problem. Shocks and wheel bearings are new as is the steering damper, also re-checked wheel bearing end play.

Local garage tried running the front wheels on their Hunter Road Force balancer again today with and without an adapter and couldn't get them centered properly. I was right at the balancer watching everything, it had both the owner and myself baffled.

Both front brake drums run true, also checked front rims with a dial indicator and the worse run out was a little over .030, 3 different sources gave different acceptable ranges for run out from .125 to .060 to .030. So not the best or the worse. The shake does come and go over a distance so I agree it may be when the forces sync. Noted it several times on one long bend that would bring wheels on one side in or out of sync with the other side. I think that pretty strongly supports the wheels being the problem.

Buggy was a full frame up rebuild, I replaced rotted floor pan with 12ga sheet metal and heavy wall 1-1/2" sq tube perimeter, sandblasted everything before painting. All measurements were checked at that time.

Haven't checked the rear drums or wheels with the dial indicator. Did remember after bringing the car home 4 years ago I noted one rear axle nut hadn't been torqued properly and damaged the splines in the drum. I must have decided from a quick visual inspection the axle splines weren't damaged and the replacement drum I put on felt like a good fit. Remote possibility I hadn't considered is the axle is very slightly bent so that's on the list to check next. Don't think I would have missed that and would feel it driving but will check as I'm running out of ideas other than the wheels.

[oprn]

Have you tried swapping wheels and tires front to back, side to side or even off another car?
_________________
Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[Brucifer33]

oprn, Have switched side to side, both front and rear wheels and tires. Manx clone buggy, so no front to rear swap. Present Jackmans with new tires replaced the previous chrome steelies with adapters that had the same problem.

Had a second shop with the Hunter balancer try balancing them again using the center opening and also using a wheel adapter bolted to the wheel for a smaller center hub opening. In both cases and both machines, the machine screen said the wheel wasn't running true but was able to do a static versus dynamic balance for both wheels. Will give it a test drive tomorrow and see what the results are.

[oprn]

I see, my Manx clone has the same bolt pattern front and rear but your rears may be oversize too much to work on the front even for a short test.
_________________
Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[Brucifer33]

Finally got rid of the steering shake and short story is the problem was cured by taking the balance beads out and using stick on weights.

[EVfun]

[Brucifer33]

As part of the fun I built something to true up the front wide 5 Jackman wheels. Used a piston rod from a hydraulic cylinder and an adapter to convert wide 5 drums to ford/chevy pattern and fitted it to the piston rod with some fabricating and lathe work. Then fabricated a second piece that slid over the piston rod holding a porta power to do the work.

After mounting the tires back on the rims I bolted them up to my set up and set the piston rod horizontal and supported it with ball bearing rollers at each end. Would spin the tire and mark where it stopped each time, typically a 3" span so just used statistical averaging and called the mid point what I had to balance out. Then used some small magnets that weighed about 1/3oz to find the needed weight. When the tire stopped at random points after being spun I called that good enough. Weighed the magnets and them replaced them with stick on 1/4oz weights held in place temporarily with masking tape to verify balance. Set up was sensitive to 1/4oz and gave the desired results.

I also spun the front wheels mounted on the buggy with an indicator and found one had about .060 radial run out measured at the tire tread. Rims had been trued to a max run out of .030. Rim run out and tire run out happened to be 180 degrees apart, so moved the tire on the rim and fixed that up.

Could have used the adapter plate to get them dynamically balanced but that wouldn't have been half as much fun.

With the added front caster shims and no shaking steering column driving in 70mph traffic is no longer white knuckle time. Still prefer the less traveled and much slower back roads in the unpopulated areas, with the addition now of comfortably using highways to access areas farther from home.